And to somebody who recommended NUKING the freaks...C'mon, Nukes aren't necessary when you have the most destructive and powerful conventional military might in the world can do the job just nicely, if need be.

quote:

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Originally posted by André Lux:

since most of you don't even knew about what's going on around here...

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NO ANDRE, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON AROUND HERE, YOU IGNORANT FOOL. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. YOU have NO idea. NONE.

quote:

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Originally posted by André Lux:

If not, why you get so touchy with my opinion?

---

I didn't read Lancelot's post, but I don't have to. I've read enough to know what it most likely addressed.

Andre Lux, you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are a CLASSLESS, THOUGHTLESS, and SINISTER human being. Your apathy is practically dripping from the monitor while you revel in the tragic events of today.

Any opinions that you were merely a stooge who desperately wanted to be an American have now been outdone by your lack of compassion towards a country in grief. You are a pathetic excuse for a man.

You have ZERO class and understanding regarding this catastrophic event, as demonstrated by your flip and callous remarks. You didn't lose anyone. This event is a comfortable distance from you and your delusional existence, yet you feel entitled to slam this country, our government, and this COLOSSAL LOSS OF LIFE.

You have absolutely no idea what this country has gone/is going through. For once in your miserable angry life, refrain from commenting with your baseless, uncompassionate opinions.

Now, isn't this a bit of a stupid thing to do for a group that was supposedly so well organised? Wouldn't they want to destroy any evidence and what good are books on how to fly a plane in the back of a car?
I think one possibility is that bin Laden is maybe being set up by someone that wants to see America go to war with...someone. Maybe Afghanistan.
Likewise, whats to say they're not a group of terrorists all by themselves that woke up one day and decided they would bomb America?
Of course, there is also the high chance that this IS the doing of bin Laden.
Either way, I think the U.S Government really needs to examine every possible possibility thoroughly before any sort of a war is launched.

Just some of my thoughts. I'm sure some of you may agree with me.

HUH??? Did you know that Serbia killed many more ethnic Albanians with something called "ETHNIC CLEANSING". Your hipocrisy is sickening.

We all have done some sick things in this world, but the Serbians KNEW this attack was coming and the people in NY and DC did not. We warned the Serbian government of our intentions, the terrorists in this cowardly act did not. We are still in peacekeeping mode in the Balkans, what do these terrorists do??? Mass murder and warfare/defense of innocents is a huge difference in my book.

You are right about one thing, let's all pray and not turn this into "YOU AMERICANS DESERVE IT."

And for your information, I did not like seeing innocent people getting bombed in Serbia either. Blame Milosevic, not us. Tyrants WILL be dealt with. Ethnic cleansing is unacceptable and, while, the U.S. is not a complete innocent, we were HELPING the ethnic Albanians. Sorry if the truth hurts.

->The people responsible were well organized and dogmatic in their resolve to carry out thier horrific plan. Remember that the terrorists also died in these attacks which only goes to show how strongly they believe in their cause and how little they value human life and the value producers of the world. No, someone didn't just wake up one day and decide to hijack four jets and cause worldwide chaos. Simplistic explanations like this have no merit. This was a well orchestrated plan of attack, right down to the names of the airlines used, United and American.

->With such a dogmatic approach, these people truly have no regard for human life, theirs or anyone elses. One does not deal with dogmatic terrorists the same way they would deal with a regular Joe, just as one wouldn't walk up to a wolf in the wild and treat it like a domesticated dog. You must deal with them on different terms. The terrorists apparently see nothing wrong in their actions - it's they truly believe this is the path to greater glory. There is no reasoning with people who are unwilling to listen.

->Our country (I speak as an American citizen) and all it stands for was both physically and symbolically attacked on September 11th, 2001. What better way to send a message to both Americans and the rest of the world than to attack and destroy the ultimate symbol of freedom and prosperity in the most diverse and populated city in the U.S. Then to put an exclamation point on their statement, they attempt to destroy the one thing that goverment was meant to do for its people - protect them from attack by outside forces - attempting to take out the ultimate symbol of America's military might.

When will all you americans stop considering yourselves SAVIOURS of the world??
If someone is hypocrite here my friend, it certainly is not me...
What did you do to save people starving in Africa...what did you do when Turkey invaded Cyprous in 1974 (when the mega-conspirator Kissinger received the Nobel price for piece-what a hypocricy...)...what did you do for all these dictatorships that conquer the countries of South America and the third world?
I'm not here to judge the american people...i'm only saying that the u.s goverment for the last 40 or 50 years are the WORST HYPOCRITES...NOT THE SAVIOURS OF THE WORLD AS YOU CLAIM.
I'm praying for the lives of all these people that lost their lives in the altar of political ambitions and vanity. Wether they are Americans or Serbians or whatever...
Just don't tell me that your goverment is the protector of the world peace. This is a big lie.
And another thing...Serbian population payed with their lives the sins of Milosevic. How dare you justify this shameless carnage! I wonder...does your proud former president Clinton feel any guilt for this? KILLING THOUSANDS OF INNOCENTS ON BEHALF OF (WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS) JUSTICE...THE ARREST OF SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC AND HIS SAVAGE (TRUE) GUERILLAS.

It's like saying that a KKK member can't be an a-hole and passing a law to keep said yahoo from being a racist and espousing hateful things. For one thing, what's to stop somebody from passing another law saying that I can't listen to heavy metal with the F word in it or rap music can't have nasty imagery or a book can't have a potentially offensive passage in it???

We all need to sit down and really think all of this out. Passing knee-jerk laws will only allow the purps of this heinous crime to win against Freedom and Democracy.

quote:

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Originally posted by THE GREEK:
Taylor

When will all you americans stop considering yourselves SAVIOURS of the world??

i'm only saying that the u.s goverment for the last 40 or 50 years are the WORST HYPOCRITES...NOT THE SAVIOURS OF THE WORLD AS YOU CLAIM.

---

First off Mr. Greek, I am not one of the Americans who thinks our beloved country is the saviours of the world. I know we have done much wrong, as have all nations at one time or another (Greek history isn't necessarily springled with love and tranquility). Yet, this nation has done much good as well. What other nation do you know of that has, after winning a brutal and devastating war, actually helped former enemies rebuild their respected societies? Would Germany and Japan be the megahouses today if it weren't for the humanitarian and complete voluntary aid of the American people and their government? I think not.

All the questions you raised in your post are questions that could be asked of many other European nations. America is not the evil empire. It never was, and it never will be. We are a nation of people with the same aspirations and dreams as other nations. We have done much good in the world and we have done much bad. Yet, that can be said of every nation on the face of this planet. But what these thugs did yesterday, is pure evil.

Scott

I never said we were the saviours of the world AND I never said we are right all of the time.

I apologize if I seemed to be flaming you in any way. I am only incensed by this and am worried about it's International implications. All Americans aren't evil people. Just because our government does something, doesn't mean we all support it 100% of the time. I support my government now in this time of crisis as should all Democracies and free people worldwide. What was done to the WTC and Pentagon was nothing short of senseless MASS MURDER.

With regards to Belgrade and Serbia, Milosevic was a madman (I would hope you agree with me on that). I didn't like seeing innocent people get bombed, but I don't want to see a race of people being exterminated (cleansed) either. WW 1 and WW 2 both started in that part of Europe, do we want WW 3 there too???

Is the U.S. a self-righteous nation...Yes and No. So unfortunately when a country is as big and is the lone superpower of the world, we will do unpopular as well as great things.

As for the things you mentioned, I can't say it's right. I say we should get involved and free the Christian slaves in Sudan. I say we should have defended the ethnic Rwandan minority that were being massacred by the ethnic majority. We do try as a nation to do the right thing as much as possible, but sometimes it comes off as heavy handed or even hypocritical.

If people would agree to let the past lie and move ahead, we would all be better off and problems would be more easily solved. Everybody has their opinion and I respect what you are saying, now that you cleared it up (you sounded like you were glad this happened with the earlier post).

As for comparing the carnage of yesterday to that of the Serbian bombings...I was NEVER doing that. I read your post and reacted as you did mine. Milosevic is scum and did some evil things. Innocents DID NOT deserve to die. You obviously did not read my point about what Milosevic was doing to the Ethnic Albanians...Do you think they should have been cleansed??? Some in Serbia sure thought so. I do not agree with senseless acts of murder no matter what. That is my opinion and I apologize if you think I am COMPARING the two bombings. Nobody deserves this kind of terror and nobody deserves to be bombed for the acts of a madman dictator who wouldn't hold popular/free elections.

quote:

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Originally posted by Taylor:
And for your information, I did not like seeing innocent people getting bombed in Serbia either. Blame Milosevic, not us. Tyrants WILL be dealt with. Ethnic cleansing is unacceptable and, while, the U.S. is not a complete innocent, we were HELPING the ethnic Albanians. Sorry if the truth hurts.

[Message edited by Taylor on 09-12-2001]

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America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television Commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and orgave other billions in debts.

None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?

If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dgoldwas:
TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

---

Dan,

In case you (and everyone else) didn't know, that is actually from the early 1970's, and was also available as a recording. I still have the 45 rpm record if it in my collection.

quote:

---

Originally posted by THE GREEK:
Scott

EVERY HUMAN BEING IS JUDGED BY HIS ACTS.

---

Bravo Greek, Again many apologies if you thought I was saying the Serbian people deserved to get bombed (they didn't).

On a side note, William Cohen and Colin Powell have made the most important observations about this whole mess; check up Cohen's statements made on CBS this morning... found on the website or in repeat broadcasts, I imagine.

Thumbs up to Cisco and General Electric for their contributions to the families of the police, fire and rescue workers trapped in the towers at the time of the collapse. This is the American spirit Powell talks about; I am glad its showing face.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BMUSTANG:
We shouldn't strike back, not until we find out who did this. Then not to punish a country, but just the group who did it. I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN

---

I could not agree more. Hopefully, the SOBs responsible will be brought to justice.

A recurring statement on the message boards I've been visiting (I have a life outside of you people ) has been that we will end up at war. My question (as well as the question of others) is this: War with WHO?! We still don't know who exactly did this. And if it's a small group, they should be punished, not the entire country in which they reside. The prospect of war frightens everyone, and I'm sure that it won't come to that. But if it does, we would all be wise to pray.

Is it possible to eradicate a small group of people without starting a cultural war? We can't just eradicate an entire culture.

Clayton

Our purpose should not be revenge, for revenge will not heal the broken hearts of grieving families any more than it will bring their relatives back. Time is the only medicine for grief.

Instead, our purpose should be to eliminate this wickedness from the world. Regardless of the history of any nation, United States or otherwise, we must all agree that Tuesday's iniquity was evil in its barest form, and it is that evil which needs to be sought out and eliminated before it is given the chance to repeat such a diabolical crime.

Evil is not deterred by evil, but strengthened by it, and it is for this reason that we should put aside all thoughts of vengeance and instead try to realize that we are driving this menace from the Earth, not from the United States. Nations and boundaries have no meaning here; it is the world over which is at risk from terrorism, not just the U.S.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Taylor:

HUH??? Did you know that Serbia killed many more ethnic Albanians with something called "ETHNIC CLEANSING". Your hipocrisy is sickening.

And for your information, I did not like seeing innocent people getting bombed in Serbia either. Blame Milosevic, not us. Tyrants WILL be dealt with. Ethnic cleansing is unacceptable and, while, the U.S. is not a complete innocent, we were HELPING the ethnic Albanians. Sorry if the truth hurts.

---

Even according to the KLA (the Albanian Kosovo Liberation Army) there waw NO ethnic cleansing until NATO began bombing Yugoslavia.
And a close following of events clearly demonstrated that the situation was not what NATO claimed it to be.
Contrary to popular propaganda in the western world, it's only after the first bombs fell on March 24th, that Milosevic and company began slaughtering albanians and pushing them accross the border.

Blame NATO, not Milosevic.

Of course, don't expect to hear any of the "true" story from CNN et al. nor read it in the New York Times.

To get news which did not fall into the propaganda category during the bombing campaign, I had to dig French newspapers and european TV news broadcasts which were biased, but much less so than Canadian and American news sources.

The truth does not hurt. Because in the case of the so-called Kosovo ethnic cleansing operation, western governments engaged in massive "propaganda", "lies", "exaggerations" and misinformation of the general public. Truth was no where to be seen other than in a rare article somewhere in the back pages that everyone throws out, and no one reads.
For all the accusations about the serbian side engaging in propaganda (and those accusations were pretty much right on target), most western media repeated like brainless sheep what they were told by their governments.

Thank you so much, Andre.
As always, you are so well informed.

THE UNITED STATES
This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing...

America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable
editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as
printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan, and to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France
was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up,
and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I
was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United
States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were
flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those
countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar
build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to
equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If
so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except
Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American
technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times -
and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are
breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home
to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad
and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose.
Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to
the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during
the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at
the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.
I hope Canada is not one of those."

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris Kinsinger:
THE UNITED STATES
This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing...

---

Geeezzz.... THREE times in one thread??

This article is really making the rounds!
Dan

Both sides were/are guilty (Serbia and the ethnic Albanians). The hate has been going on for centuries and will probably continue back up at some point in the future as NATO can't patrol those countries forever. Somebody killed those Albanians and I doubt it was America, c'mon with the conspiracy theory.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I pride myself on NOT listening to biased news reports and digging up unbiased information, just like you did. Something nasty went down there and IT WAS WRONG no matter what it is and who is to blame. But I know America and Europe weren't the only culprits in that tragedy.

I will agree to disagree with you and move on...I respect your fair-minded, non-judgemental tone (i.e. - Thanks for not flaming me and stating a thought out opinion/belief). Oh well...peace to you, and not all of us Americans are evil people, that is what I wish some in the world would realize...

quote:

---

Originally posted by wistiti:
To get news which did not fall into the propaganda category during the bombing campaign, I had to dig French newspapers and european TV news broadcasts which were biased, but much less so than Canadian and American news sources.

---

Funny I read and watched several European reports and even read some Indian (Gujurati) newsreports and they all pretty much said the same thing, and it is not what you are trying to dish out on this board. Care to give me your sources? I'd really like to read those for myself.

Scott

Milosovic slaughtered Albanians, but he only did this because NATO struck him based on western world propaganda. It's NATO's fault.

And if you shoot someone, you didn't kill them, the gun did. Blame the person who sold you the gun.

And if you're driving drunk and cause an accident, it's not your fault, it was the person who sold you the alcohol that's to blame.

And if you rob a 7-11, it's not your fault, it's because you grew up in a dysfunctional family. Your parents are to blame.

And if you're riding your bicycle at night without a light on it and get hit by a car, it's the bike manufacturer's fault because they didn't tell you to have a light on the bike while riding it at night.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott:

Funny I read and watched several European reports and even read some Indian (Gujurati) newsreports and they all pretty much said the same thing, and it is not what you are trying to dish out on this board. Care to give me your sources? I'd really like to read those for myself.

Scott

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Go look into the archives of the following:
Le Monde
Le Monde Diplomatique
Le Figaro
Le Figaro Magazine
Le Point
L'Évènement
The Guardian (Weekly)

The report about the KLA's comments about the ethnic cleansing were printed on the top page of the National Post
Other reports can also be found in the back pages of The Globe and Mail and The Toronto
Star.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Taylor:
Oh well...peace to you, and not all of us Americans are evil people, that is what I wish some in the world would realize...

---

Americans are not evil people. I have never seen mean americans in my trips south of the border. Everyone has always been kind, and more than willing to help. As is demonstrated by the tragic events on Tuesday when everyone (or almost) wants to help their countrymates.
And as is contrary to the events depicted in a certain idiotic Hollywood movie (The Trigger Effect) in which everyone almost killed each other after a natural disaster.
But unfortunately, when one is on top (economically and militarily at least) they are often targeted.

At anti-modialization protests, no one breaks Wendy's windows, as opposed to McDonald's windows. No one talks about Reebock and adidas' human rights records in Asia, but Nike is first in the critics' line.

these are almost all French publications. Considering the French are not the greatest friends of this nation, don't you think you are simply replacing one type of propaganda with another one? What if the french are wrong? Or lying? But, I'll check 'em out....

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott:
Wistiti,

these are almost all French publications. Considering the French are not the greatest friends of this nation, don't you think you are simply replacing one type of propaganda with another one? What if the french are wrong? Or lying?
Scott

---

Their relationship to the USA has little to do with what was going on in Yugoslavia.
The French took part in the campaign, though to a lesser extent than the USA. Yet, their news sources tried to vary their reports and include a bit more information than the official line coming out of the offices of Jacques Chirac and Lionel Jospin.

Replacing one line of propaganda with another one would have been to quote official serbian television and newspaper reports as "unbiased" news coverage when in fact they were just as biased and one sided as the crap I was watching on ABC.

Could the French be wrong? Sure. Then again, so could american/canadian news organizations.
Lying? Not likely. From experience, I have learned to trust France 2 and Le Monde, if not necessarily the others.
We're not talking about some Milosevic-owned newspaper or TV network here. We're talking about major news organizations.

For all the "misinformation" presented by the western news sources which I accuse of propaganda, none of them were lying. They simply weren't doing anything to find out more than what was being fed into their mouths by the official press releases.
They quoted blindly, without checking their stories.
Critical journalism went down the drain.

We have also seen those on the left make inappropriate remarks, such as Massachusetts Congressmen Meehan and Neal, who had the gall to dismiss the threat against President Bush on Tuesday as "PR spin" but the most disgusting comment belongs to Michael Moore, a so-called "filmmaker" who ought to hang his head in shame for this:

"Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right. They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the planes' destination of California--these were places that voted AGAINST Bush! Why kill them? Why kill anyone?"