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Author	Topic: The World Trade Center got attacked...again.

James Oscar® Winner	This is a truly terrible event. The victims and their families will most certainly be in prayers. And Eric - If I remember correctly, I think that sequence was only shot for the purposes of the trailer, and the scene was not in the film to begin with.
posted 09-11-2001 07:25 PM PT (US)

JJH Oscar® Winner	I just want to say that the people responsible need to be taken out. Why? Because taking THEM out will save countless lives in the long run. There are just a few peope in the world capable of somethis disastrous and it is despicable to me that the intelligence community cannot get the clearance they need to do proper searches because we "don't want to stoop to their level." Well you know what? Screw whoever did this and kill them. He did it once, he'll do it again. If you have the chance to prevent more attacks of this nature, you have the obligation to prevent it. If that means killing one person instead of letting 50,000 die, well fine by me. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
posted 09-11-2001 07:46 PM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Oscar® Winner	You know what really frightens me? It's certainly not easy to do something like this. You need to have detailed information to plan it all, you need to get people in the right positions so you can hijack the planes, and you need people who can fly big passenger airplanes and are willing to kill themselves. But once you have that, and once you have hijacked a passenger airplane - how do you stop it? To be honest, I was rather surprised that an actual plane that flies into a building like the WTC is stuck there and doesn't send half of it's hull flying through the air into the surrounding buildings.
posted 09-11-2001 08:08 PM PT (US)

Eric Paddon Oscar® Winner	I have learned more details of what my cousin went through this morning and the fact that he is alive is nothing short of miraculous. His office was on the 82nd floor of the North Tower, literally just several floors below where the first plane struck. It was a miracle enough that he was not killed in the explosion but he was trapped briefly and we were convinced he was dead. Then we discovered that he was able to get out by the stairs and made it out of the North Tower (which was second to collapse) only minutes before it fell. Most of his business colleagues and friends are likely dead. I still find myself thinking tomorrow I will wake up and find out this never happened. [Message edited by Eric Paddon on 09-11-2001]
posted 09-11-2001 08:21 PM PT (US)

cine-sin Oscar® Winner	Hi, Thank goodness Ebay has put a grinding halt on those auctions seeking to profit from the revolting terrorist act. From photos to domain names to newspapers...what next - a piece of the building or a vial of victims blood perhaps? Some people have no conscience whatsoever. Prayers to all those victims and families. Regards, Rochelle
posted 09-12-2001 07:53 AM PT (US)

Lightborne Oscar® Winner	A sad sad day. There should be no mercy for this type of action. When we as the often accused "imperialistic" country coordinate attacks, we do not target civilians specifically. The perpetrators of yesterdays events need to be eliminated. Not only for the death of the innocent, but to indeed show as FDR did that this type of action will never stand and the consequences forr these actions will be so horrrible you would never even consider doing it. I'm talking about as severe as the lining of the Appian Way leading into Rome with crucifixes.. That's the type of and severity of the "punishment" I'm talking about.
posted 09-12-2001 09:24 AM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	Can you explain a little more by the Appian Way/crucifixes thing, lightborne? I want to understand what you mean. Rochelle, no kidding. I was sickened and horrified by the number of eBay listings for things related to this event. The sheer number of items devastated my hopes that everyone would unite against this atrocity. I was relieved once I clicked on the items, though, as all of the auctions had been cancelled. eBay, thumbs up.
posted 09-12-2001 10:54 AM PT (US)

Kevin Oscar® Winner	PK (and others): Taking for granted how sick it is for people to try to make a buck on this, either on eBay or someplace else, but one of the thoughts that ran through my head late yesterday was... When will we see the Hollywood movie-of-the-week version? 6 months? A year? I wouldn't put it past them. Kevin
posted 09-12-2001 02:00 PM PT (US)

Taylor Oscar® Winner	Speaking of making a buck: http://www.girlieaction.com/coup/coup-cover-300.jpg this album was supposed to come out next week, I guess. Check out how eerie the shot of the exploding towers looks.
posted 09-12-2001 02:11 PM PT (US)

Lightborne Oscar® Winner	Dan, in ancient Rome, they lined the Appian Way, basically the "highway" leading into the city, with crucifixes. These crucufixes had the perpetrators of various crimes nailed to them. Their crimes were stated on a sign fastened to the crucifix base. This was to warn those coming into the city what not to try and pull. Many have called this barbaric. I call it effective. What's barbaric is allowing people like Timothy McVeigh to die mercifully after the immense amount of pain they have caused. It is ridiculous to say things like "Cruel punishment won't solve anything. More death won't do anything" YES, INDEED IT WILL. Basically the reason we obey laws and rules is FEAR of breaking them. FEAR keeps us in check. The normal person fears the normal punishment. Abnormal people don't fear this normal punishment. Jail time. Lethal Injection. Extreme torture they will fear. Extreme pain they will fear. You have to remove that comfort zone and make them FEAR the consequences of their actions. That is what crucifixion was designed to do. Punish in such a way that you wouldn't consider perrpetrating a crime because of the fear of that punishment. When all you that happens to you for stealing is being put on probation or a little jail time, you're not that afraid to steal. When your thievery means losing a hand, then you fear it. Can people recover and rehabilitate. Sure, but it'll be a lot quicker with one hand. The same goes for terrorist groups. If they see an unfathomably cruel response by our country for this action (which happened when we struck Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Unfortunately civilians had to be casualties in that one) other terrorists will think twice before pulling a stunt like this again. It will show America can be nice, but we can be that giant you don't want to awaken, also.
posted 09-12-2001 02:39 PM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Oscar® Winner	Lightborne, you don't really believe that kamikaze terrorists would refrain from their actions out of fear of any kind of death penalty?
posted 09-12-2001 03:14 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	Lightborne, I asked the question. I know the incident you speak of along the Appian Way. I had thought you implied this happened with regularity along the Appian, which it did not. Certainly though, crucifixions were widespread for 800 years throughout the Roman Empire until Constantine discontinued them in the fourth century. What you described is part of the well-known celebratory crucifixions of 6,000 followers of Spartacus in 71 BCE. The Appian has had its sore moments in history, but also some of the most inspiring moments as well. To the topic though, I feel crucifixions are out-dated. What will come of this terror will be an amazing coalition of countries from the free world (and possibly some countries in the not-so-free world) and an unprecented, carefully calculated and pin-pointed attacks on terrorism at its very roots. Going in blazing won't do it - Russia tried this with Afghanistan, and we remember how that turned out. [Message edited by PeterK on 09-12-2001]
posted 09-12-2001 03:25 PM PT (US)

Wedge Oscar® Winner	People sometimes obey the law out of fear. Ideally people should obey the law out of respect for the law. People fear the law but break it anyway when a desire they have is strong enough to overcome that fear. People who respect the law, on the other hand, generally never break it -- and if they do, they have a damn good reason! ("I ran that red light because a tree was about to fall on my car.") In other words, I don't believe that ruling by fear will accomplish much in the long-term.
posted 09-12-2001 05:44 PM PT (US)

Scott Oscar® Winner	There are three types of people. 1. Those who will do the right thing no matter what. 2. Those who will do whatever they want to do. 3. Those who will do whatever they want to do unless there is a rule or law against it. Our law are made for the third group, for the first one doesn't need the law and the second group will break the law no matter what. Scott
posted 09-12-2001 07:32 PM PT (US)

Lightborne Oscar® Winner	quote: Originally posted by Marian Schedenig: Lightborne, you don't really believe that kamikaze terrorists would refrain from their actions out of fear of any kind of death penalty? Every person out there fears something. Something they will do anything to prevent. Everyone's got a threshold...I don't care how strong willed you are. The trick I would imagine is to make it excruciating and lasting so that more than anything they would beg for death. I'm sure there are pain experts out there, especially in our CIA, that know techniques for finding this threshold and bursting through it. My point is that these terrorists must not be obliterated quickly, mercifully...They should become examples to the world of what will not be tolerated. Once that example is made, they should be eliminated. Erased from existence. Everything, not a trace left. This the chance for America to show a different face, a more respected face. We as a country, I feel, have lost stock in our reputation because of our overwhelming tolerance towards everything. This had caused us to actually become weaker on the inside. Case in point is this "rationalization" politically correct b.s. we are fed by our country that, in a way, diminishes the emotional response we should have to this incident. One of the most horrible in entire the history of the world. Our president gets on the television, seemingly, emotionless,,,because he is dictated to be. His judgement will come into question if he shows his anger, the anger he really feels...the saddness over the futility of it all...he cannot shed a tear before us. And why I ask you? I'm not saying mobilize and strike immediately, blindly. But for God's sake, let the country grieve. Let our newscasters grieve before our eyes. They witnessed people dying at their feet. The country has got to get over this "Was it a dream? That really sucks. Man. Well, let's just carry on" mentality and grasp what really did occur yesterday. We need to stop, take pause, and feel the real pain we have in our hearts for the whole tragedy. Our president and leaders need to show us that it is alright to do this. To grieve. Then we will accept that we don't have to be that tolerant nice country in our response to the actions of these perpetrators when it comes time for revenge.
posted 09-12-2001 10:05 PM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Oscar® Winner	quote: Originally posted by Lightborne: This the chance for America to show a different face, a more respected face. Uhm, I assure you that if you succumb to openly torturing people, no matter what they've done, the rest of the world will LOSE what respect for the US it still has left. It seems to me now that film characters like Darth Vader aren't so popular because they are fascinating, but because people actually like them. "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." - J.R.R. Tolkien
posted 09-13-2001 07:07 AM PT (US)

Camillu Oscar® Winner	Marian - is that from LOTR? Coz it rings a bell...
posted 09-13-2001 10:25 AM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Oscar® Winner	It is. Gandalf's words to Frodo when they're talking about Gollum in Shadow of the Past. The quote has been on my mind since I read some of the comments here.
posted 09-13-2001 11:12 AM PT (US)

Scorro Oscar® Winner	quote: the rest of the world will LOSE what respect for the US it still has left. Seems like the type of statement I would expect from Andre Lux. Great work! Thanks for your support.
posted 09-13-2001 11:51 AM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Oscar® Winner	I will always support not torturing whomever. NP: Anton Bruckner: Motets (Chor des Bayerischen Rundfunks, Eugen Jochum)
posted 09-13-2001 12:22 PM PT (US)

Scorro Oscar® Winner	Then you may want to work on the problem of central European countries selling chemicals and associated equipment to Sadam Hussein (and other dictators), who uses those materials to build chemical weapons of mass destruction. Respect? ... get real. Actually, it goes far beyond chemicals alone. There's a long laundry list of weaponry that has flowed out of Europe to be bought by any evil despot who has the cash, no questions asked. Look at any area of wartorn suffering around the world and you will find those weapons in use. When sanctions are imposed on evil dictatorships in an effort to make them change their ways and defuse the threat they pose, it's quite common for the same countries which supplied them with weapons to undermine the sanctions, again for the money. [Message edited by Scorro on 09-13-2001]
posted 09-13-2001 12:34 PM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Oscar® Winner	So? I'm not responsible, and if I had anything to say, this wouldn't happen. But unfortunately, I don't have anything to say. NP: Conan the Barbarian (Basil Poledouris)
posted 09-13-2001 03:36 PM PT (US)

Timmer Oscar® Winner	Scorro, has it escaped your attention that the U.S. supplied IRAQ with weaponry during it's war with IRAN? The same weaponry that was used against us (the allies) during the conflict in 92...or AFGHANISTAN while in conflict with the RUSSIANS?! Sounds to me like it's YOU who needs to 'get real'!
posted 09-13-2001 05:58 PM PT (US)

Scorro Oscar® Winner	Timmer, My point was is that there is plenty of blame to go around and, when someone makes the statement "the rest of the world will LOSE what respect for the US it still has left" while my countrymen are being dug out of the rubble of terrorist destruction, I will point that out to them. The self-sanctimonious hypocracy of these types is sickening and I choose not to ignore it. If that bothers you, too bad. And I know good and well the U.S.'s involvement in Iraq's affairs and I never supported any aid to Sadam. But, we weren't alone in that and still aren't.
posted 09-13-2001 06:08 PM PT (US)

Timmer Oscar® Winner	Agreed Scorro, but it would have made things easier if you'd pointed this out to begin with rather than pinpoint Europeans?! Marian was addressing a specific and valid point, no need to take anything out on him for that! Either way, I don't want any grudge with you, we are obviously on the same side! sleep tight bro Tim [Message edited by Timmer on 09-13-2001]
posted 09-13-2001 06:45 PM PT (US)

Lightborne Oscar® Winner	quote: Originally posted by Marian Schedenig: Uhm, I assure you that if you succumb to openly torturing people, no matter what they've done, the rest of the world will LOSE what respect for the US it still has left. It seems to me now that film characters like Darth Vader aren't so popular because they are fascinating, but because people actually like them. *"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." - J.R.R. Tolkien* Not to be cruel in these saddening times, Marian, but I don't live my life through science fiction and fantasy characters. Because it is fiction and fantasy. In reality, Timothy McVeigh destoyed many lives, those now dead and those still alive, suffering through the memory of the dead. He is dead now also and died mercifully (in my eyes) by lethal injection. That is reality. And that was a mistake for America. Reality has also dictated that on the Eleventh of September 2001, 4 planeloads of innocent civilians were used as weapons to level a building full of innocent civilians. That is reality , not Fredo talking about the Golem, Vader to Luke or Kirk about Tribbles. This is real blood. Real death. Real explosions. AND MOST OF ALL, REAL PAIN. To think this was just a lucky strike by the forces of evil is naive. It was a calculated and very brilliant attack. The people who did this knew exactly what was going to happen. That, as we watched the events unfold, dumbfounded, the laws of PHYSICS would bring down both towers. It was superb attempt at correcting the error of their strike years prior. And they knew how to make it happen. And they were very patient in their waiting for it to happen. Their perpetrating minions assimilated themselves into this country years before the strike would happen. This is just the beginning of these type of attacks...unless we do something about it. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY AMERICA, WITH THE FREE WORLD AT IT'S SIDE, MUST SHOW A FACE THAT IS SO TERRIBLE AND CRUEL AND TORTURING, THAT THIS EVIL LIES ON THE GROUND AND OFFERS ITS THROAT IN SUBMISSION, AS HAPPENS WITH WOLVES IN NATURE. IT IS ABOUT PRIMAL INSTINCT NOW. DARWINISM. OTHERWISE, YOU BETTER GET USED TO WEEKS LIKE THIS PAST ONE.
posted 09-15-2001 09:46 PM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Oscar® Winner	I never said that I would live my life throught fantasy characters. That doesn't change the fact that LOTR is about violence and war and how to deal with it. There can be much truth in a fantasy story, even if the story itself is made up. Of course something must be done about it. But the point is, the right thing must be done. Most countries are at the US' side right now. If the US show a face "so terrible and cruel and torturing", many will distance themselves from the US. Will you attack those then, too, considering them allies of the terrorists? There are two reasons why so many countries so quickly responded with assuring the US military support. For one, it's because of true shock, sympathy with the victims, and the desire to prevent future attacks like these. But they also did it because many people in the world were afraid that the US might make blind retaliation strikes that would lead the whole world to war. Even if people are on the US side right now, that doesn't mean they blindly agree with everything the US does. There have always been many critics of US policy (me included). Some people have quite extreme views and say really bad things about US citizens. Having many friends in the US due to these boards, I try to calm them down, but it's comments like the above that make me wonder if they are right in the end.
posted 09-16-2001 06:08 AM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Oscar® Winner	Mir Tamim Ansary on Afghanistan
posted 09-16-2001 07:01 AM PT (US)

Lightborne Oscar® Winner	quote: Originally posted by Marian Schedenig: Mir Tamim Ansary on Afghanistan While Ansary may have some points with some of his arguments about the ramifications of a strike, we cannot sit and think and puzzle over this one. While we do, other strikes are being planned because of this sensitivity. We had to show the world once that the U.S. will end evil no matter what the cost, as Hirshima and Nagasaki proved, as well as the destruction of Berlin. If this must be done then it will be done. My torturing argument though really was focused on a human individual basis, like the guy they took off of the airplane the other day. Our enemies must see their individuals suffering horribly to get the full picture of our vengeance and what we will not hold back from doing. On a bigger scale, if countries themselves, unite against us in a Islam verses the West conflict, then they must be eliminated. If that means all of them, that means all of them. They may have more people, but not military superiority. Those countries stand on the threshold of existence. Reagan proved this with Kadafy's threats and Bush, Sr. proved this with Iraq's threats. Boast all you want about killing the U.S., but with this latest incident, you've only awakened the giant again from his slumber. We were caught off guard, but it is these countries who will eventually offer their throats to us in surrender as Iraq did. Ansary also believes that it will be just the West as the Allies. Wrong. There are plenty of countries in the Eastern hemisphere that , with their added military superiority, will join us in this fight. These Islamic countries are the new Axis powers. And believe me, the Axis powers of old had a military superiority which challeged the Allies quite competently. These Islamic countries will find a much different story. As stated in Congress last week: If you are not with us, then you are against us and are therefore considered the enemy. " I say this to our enemies. We are coming. God may show you mercy. We will not. " Sen. John McCain Sept. 13, 2001
posted 09-16-2001 01:42 PM PT (US)

Scott Oscar® Winner	While I am one of the crazy Americans who believe that we must strike and that we must strike terribly and with resolve, I do not like the statement quoted fo John McCaine. Mercy should always be an option. We are not above God. We are not even close to God. If God can have mercy, we should also be able to. Dont' get me wrong. I believe it is time to show the terrible face of this nation. The face of a nation that loves to live in peace. A nation that has done much good, even if it has failed and done wrong many times. Yet with the United States of America, there is more good, than bad. Let's also not forget that many non-Americans perished in this attack. My heart goes out to all of them and my prayers continue to seek solace for those left behind. Scott
posted 09-16-2001 05:53 PM PT (US)

Timmer Oscar® Winner	Indeed scott, it's possible that as many as 500 British citizens died in this attack, definitely 100!, as well as many other nationalities, this makes it 'our' problem as much as it is the United States. I hope that the powers that be look at this situation very VERY carefully, we really don't want any kind of knee jerk reaction here, when WE have retaliation let it be true and just and at the CORRECT target! Leave the gung ho tactics for hollywood films, they have no place in real life situations.
posted 09-16-2001 06:19 PM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Oscar® Winner	Exactly. quote: Originally posted by Lightborne: we cannot sit and think and puzzle over this one. "You" can. "You" have to. Whoever does a counterstrike must take the time to find out who is responsible first. Attacking the wrong persons/governments/countries will just make things worse for everyone, including you. Also, you have to differentiate between governments and countries. If a government has an alliance with terrorists, it doesn't mean that the whole population of that country, or even a major part of it, agrees with this. You can't just "eliminate" whole populations just because their governments (who often don't have much support from the real population) is against you. quote: If you are not with us, then you are against us and are therefore considered the enemy. Thanks for making Austria your enemy: We are neutral by law (WW2, remember?), and while as most countries Austria is willing to support the US, we won't do this with military power. So I guess that means we are against you?
posted 09-16-2001 06:42 PM PT (US)

Lancelot Oscar® Winner	Fredo talking to the Golem? I'm smaat....I'm smaat and I want the ring.... levity, the last defense.
posted 09-16-2001 06:54 PM PT (US)

Lightborne Oscar® Winner	quote: Originally posted by Marian Schedenig: "You" can. "You" have to. Whoever does a counterstrike must take the time to find out who is responsible first. Attacking the wrong persons/governments/countries will just make things worse for everyone, including you. Thanks for making Austria your enemy: We are neutral by law (WW2, remember?), and while as most countries Austria is willing to support the US, we won't do this with military power. So I guess that means we are against you? First of all, I think I stated before that we should not stike blindly. We should be intelligent about this, but with each passing day the enemy fells stronger and thus, becomes bolder. We cannot sit and go over this a million times like Ansary seems to suggest. We must strike decisively. In war there are casualties. This overwhelming wishywashy apathy and tolerance is what brought us to this situation. We can't use that method to solve it... Marian, if Austria supports us with their voice, then that means they are WITH us, even if they don't provide military. There are some things that are black and white, you know. If Austria spoke out against us, then that would mean they'd be AGAINST us. Get it?
posted 09-17-2001 09:50 AM PT (US)

majestyx Oscar® Winner	Want some interesting reading? Refer to the following link: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/binmurder1.shtml Very scary. After reading the tactics that are deemed necessary by this book, we must realize that we are not dealing with people who will sit down and reason. They have extreme faith/belief in their religion and justify what they do in the name of God/Allah.
posted 09-17-2001 10:09 AM PT (US)

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