light is light and dark is dark

light is not dark corrupted and dark is not light corrupted

they are 2 separate things

i have a choice to kill someone
because i want their money

if i dont kill them i am good and if do i am evil

2. POINT TWO if no one ever did the evil thing then we would not have a word good just as if only had daylight and never night we would not have a word for daylight

but evil is not necessarry for good to exist It could still exist BUT we wouldnt KNOW it as "good" it would just be the way things are

Wedge, I personally AGREE with you saying "(Evil) cannot exist without first having something good to be a corruption of. - - (Evil is) a perversion of something good."

I'm not a religious person myself; I rather believe in EVERYTHING this world and universe suggest within, which - in my opinion - is more of common sense than believing something just because other people believe in it. I have always felt that if I can explain a belief (in common sense), I can believe it.

In common sense, again, it has to be believed that the entire universe is a "supernatural" thing ( - I'd like to see anyone trying to disagree with this one). Because of this, I disagree with you, Wedge, on your saying that "dark is the absence of light, NOT its opposite" - because who knows which one was first, darkness or light ?

But, regarding to Evil, it is a "force" only born within the people - and people only - thus NOT being an original force in the universe. That's why true Good always conquers Evil.

Paul Williams, who wrote the lyrics for Goldsmith's FLYING DREAMS, is at his philosophical & melodical best with his songs for PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE - the Brian De Palma movie that has also some very philosophical points in it.

I'd like to end this post with Howard Ashman's lyrics from ONCE UPON A TIME IN NEW YORK CITY (from OLIVER & COMPANY)... These lyrics really touched my soul when all seemed to fall down:

"...Get out there, let go and try
Believing that you're the guy they're dying to see
'Cause a dream's no crime...
Not once upon a time...
...Keep your dream alive
Dreaming is still how the strong survive..."

Get out your elementary physics book, Dr. Dark is not a "thing." LIGHT is a thing. It can be measured, studied, refracted, etc. "Dark" is not a thing. It is the absence of light. That's not a theory, that's a basic fact of nature.

If you look up "evil" in the dictionary, it will probably hinge on the definition of "bad." If you look up "bad" you get definitions like "MORE INFERIOR" and "BEING FURTHER FROM A STANDARD."

Good is the only standard in this case. There IS no "standard of badness" by which bad things are measured. Bad ONLY EXISTS when you hold something up to a standard of good. This is rudimentary philosophy.

if all we had was day we would not know night

but because we have night we know day

is that better

i could go on and on how evil is triumphing

mhrrgh...

People who at least think that they are good think that all Evil is an abhoration. You claim there is no "evil standard". The "good standard" is God. Now, the question is whether there is or is not a force out there equatable to God--some "Anti-God" that sets an "Evil Standard"...

Maybe there is and it's not the nature of the thing to understand it, or even acknowledge it. That's the mystery. Doesn't mean I'm going to go poking my nose down every black hole and drain pipe trying to find it, either.

I think God has the final say in those matters. (But that's just what I think.)

[pause for long thought, big sigh.]

It's Sunday morning here, as I'm praying to the electric idol on my desk. I'd like to think that I have some faith, and that I haven't given in to the mediocrity of atheism. I think there is evil in the world that exists for its' own purposes, and perhaps I've failed to explain my thoughts on it adequately. While the subject matter has not diminished in interest or passion for me, the present debate has. And not that I don't welcome the debate, or feel that at any point it has gotten out of hand or nasty (though there have been some straining points...)

However, at this point I am acknowledging that we have strayed far from the original topic, (perhaps ultimately, justifying it), and we have been welcomed, so far, to do so. But for now, I am putting down the sword and shield and stepping away to pursue other matters, and to further contemplate the complexity of universe. The last word is yours.

i know good triumphs too sometimes
but my list was to show how well evil is doing

i could make a list of good as well although

evil exists because people are ignorant or scared or lazy or EVIL (in that they know wrong from right and choose wrong)

myths also help evil flourish
poor people are lazy rich people work hard
or there is not enough food to feed everyone

etc etc etc

all those evil things i mentioned could be solved if people wanted to solve them but greed (putting money ahead of human welfare is largely responsible for it's continuation)

I will leave you with these parting thoughts.

The very idea of an "Anti-God" makes little sense. Two gods on an equal footing having created the universe, one good, one evil, would justify evil on a divine scale. After all, neither side of a piece of paper is better than the other ... whichever side is up just happens to be the side you are on at that particular moment.

It makes little practical religious sense. Would an evil person expect to be rewarded with GOOD things from an evil God? An "Anti-God" could naturally not be the source of anything good. Would the evil person WANT to be rewarded with evil treatment from his evil God? Logically, practically ... it just doesn't fit. People don't do evil and expect to be rewarded with evil! This surprises and shocks them. They do evil because they are enticed with promises of good things quicker, faster, easier ...

The eminently more logical position is that evil people have gone wrong. They want to obtain good things -- love, security, pleasure -- in the wrong way. That is their "purpose." They have strayed from the path because they found that being good was often hard. They wanted to live on their own terms (and not God's terms, if you will -- that is to say, the natural terms that Reality sets forth.) They sought to find an easier way to happiness, and they have not found it. Is it any wonder that they want to console themselves by telling themselves that they are merely following a different path? That one path is as good as the next? It comforts them to say that, well, if only you were to come over where they were you would see that any place is as good as the next.

It is a fiction. Evil people are not, as a rule, happy. They may claim to be; they may even work themselves into a kind of delusion of happiness. But they have a cancer of the soul that has been plainly recognizeable to philosophers and religious figures the world over since the beginnings of human history.

The question I would ask yourself is: why do you insist on holding onto this depressing and fruitless idea that all the evil things in the world are even remotely "okay." They are not. They are a perversion of truth and knowledge. They are not self-sufficient, they are parasitic. They bleed good things from the world like a leech ... but without those good things, they would wither and die. THEY WOULD WITHER AND DIE without Real Things. That is very important.

Examine your own relationships and world-experience. Compassion is self-sustaining. Because it is founded on Truth and Knowledge, it supports its own reality. Hate, on the other hand, burns itself out. If not checked, it will even consume the carrier. It annihilates the spirit without creating a just-as-good "anti-spirit." It is madness and despair, ignorance and folly. It is not to be accepted into the great scheme of things: this is the LIE that it has fostered that allows it to continue! Evil needs people to accept it and to keep it alive! I say NO! It is to be surpassed and overcome! It is to be STARVED with the pursuit of TRUTH.

Speaking for myself? In my case, Jesus Christ is the "way the truth and the light" ... the Ultimate Reality, Absolute Knowledge, revealing Itself to Human Beings in terms in which they can understand and participate. I think it is the most beautiful thing that has ever happened, and I would encourage you to experience it for yourself as an active participant. Celebrate Truth and Wisdom and Beauty and you will find that evil shrinks away like vapor.

I don't expect not to suffer. The wages of sin is death. That is the condition of this world. But with compassion and the acceptance of Grace one can transform suffering into an opportunity to gain strength of spirit. And ultimately, LIFE. I mean LIFE with all four capital letters.

Call me an optimist, I suppose. I've seen too much good not to love it and search for it at the back of everything in the hope of finding it. I've seen too much evil to give it half a leg to stand on. Too much injustice to throw my idea of justice away. I'll also say this: there's a reason we call it the "Good News" Bible.

Have you read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis, Lancelot? If you are truly passionate and interested in this subject, I advise you to read it carefully. Wherever you may agree or disagree with him, I think you will find it a good source of thoughts to chew on.

I think it would be better if I didn't continue this minor "debate" - but this is the first time my topic has developed into a conversation that truly interests me.

I just want to say that I don't like religion, especially Christian belief, because it claims that even a little baby is a sinner. Even worser is that many Christian people who claim themselves as righteous people, still commit sin and explain that God will forgive them because they believe in Him. In other words, it seems that Christian belief makes it "OK" to commit sin.

My own philosophy doesn't make it "OK" to deliberately hurt any people (or creature, whatsoever).

I personally think, that people should find their strength within themselves by BELIEVING IN THEMSELVES and not in something else. I really think that the world could be a better place if humans would stop their search for the meaning of life (life in space and truth from books) - and instead search for their hearts within.

This leads back to my topic, because all of these wonderful philosophic movie songs have really helped me in finding my own heart - and not letting it go. And yet I think I'm honest to myself by accepting the fact that I'm only a very small part of an enormous puzzle, a bigger entity, which we call the universe.

First, his Oscar Winning song from "Norma Rae" called "It Goes Like It Goes"

And then there's the one he wrote for "Only When I Laugh" that didn't make it into the film, but IS on the Bay Cities recording of Shire music "David Shire At the Movies".

Dear Ken,

Everything I post below I post because you claim the topic "truly interests" you. Being the subject of your interest, I feel an obligation to make a good show of it.

Rather unfortunately, your statements reflect many popular opinions. These opinions are NOT based on true Christianity, but rather a distorted view of Christianity which has been circulated by rumor, misinformation, and people who, while they may call themselves Christian, have moved so far from what "Christian" means as to bear no resemblance to it.

Please allow me to explain where I feel you have been misled and why:

ISSUE A

You lack an accurate concept of what (Orthodox) Christians mean by "sin." (I use the qualifier Orthodox becase (a) I have the most experience in this area of Christianity, and (b) as I said, there are all sorts of screwed-up "religions" claiming to be Christians and poisoning the minds of the general public.)

For an Orthodox definition of sin, I will turn to Bishop Kallistos Ware:

Sin is not to be interpreted in juridical or quasi-biological terms, as if it were some physical "taint" of guilt, transmitted through sexual intercourse ... rather that we are born into an environment where it is easy to do evil and hard to do good; easy to hurt others, and hard to heal their wounds; easy to arouse men's suspicions, and hard to win their trust. It means that we are each of us conditioned by the solidarity of the human race in its accumulated wrong-doing and wrong-thinking, and hence wrong-being. And to this accumulation of wrong we have ourselves added by our own deliberate acts of sin ...

No man is an island. We are "members of one another" (Eph.4:25), and so any action, performed by any member of the human race, inevitably affects all the other members. Even though we are not, in the strict sense, guilty of the sins of others, yet we are somehow always involved.

ISSUE B

If you think that Christianity CONDONES sin just because you can get "off the hook" you've been severely misinformed indeed! REAL Christianity is all about accepting responsibility for your sins, not weaseling out of them. That means going humbly to God like a kid who just wrecked his dad's car. Sure, you know your father will always love you no matter what ... but does that give you liscence to wreck his stuff and shrug it off? Of course not. That's milquetoast philosophy and I think we both know it. Misconceptions like this are propagated by anti-Christian groups who don't have the guts to attack Christianity in it's true shape. It's very easy to set up cardboard cut-outs and knock them over for your own edification.

ISSUE C

Your statement that you do not "like" religion is revealing. You are not supposed to "like" religion, as if it were a book you have read. When your child tells you he doesn't "like" going to school, what will you tell him? Perhaps you don't "like" having to get up every morning and go to work, but you do it, and when you think about it are glad for the opportunity to do it because it is what allows you to survive. We don't always "like" interacting with other people, even people we love. And we CERTAINLY don't "like" criticizing ourselves and admitting we have made an error. It's humiliating and often painful, but it's the ONLY way to improve. Life is not something we "like," it is something we LIVE. Religion is like that.

ISSUE D

As for "believing in yourself" instead of something "else" ... looking "within" instead of "without" ... well, there are problems with that.

First of all, back to "real" Christianity: naturally, you should look within yourself! According to scripture, you are a "temple of the Holy Spirit" ... an "image-bearer" of God, being formed in His likeness. In other words, God IS your true-self. Christians say that you aren't going to find yourself without finding God. Every good thing that you have and are is also a part of Him. You can deny it if you like ... but "searching for God" has nothing to do with staring moonily into space. It has everything to do with making yourself as like God as possible ... like a mirror struggling to produce an accurate reflection.

To believe in God is to affirm your own existence. Again, to quote Kallistos Ware: "We have always existed for [God]; creation signifies that at a certain point in time we begin to exist also for ourselves. Or C.S. Lewis: "It is no good trying to "be myself" without [God]. The more I resist Him and try to live on my own, the more I become dominated by my own heredity and upbringing and surroundings and natural desires. In fact what I so proudly call "Myself" becomes merely the meeting place for trains of events which I never started and which I cannot stop. What I call "My wishes" become merely the desires thrown up by my physical organism or pumped into me by other men's thoughts ... Eggs and alcohol and a good night's sleep will be the real origins of what I flatter myself by regarding as my own highly personal and discriminating decision ... Propaganda will be the real origin of what I regard as my own personal political ideals. I am not, in my natural state, nearly so much of a person as I like to believe: most of what I call "me" can be very easily explained. [Such as finding your "self" in philosophical movie songs.]It is when I turn to Christ, when I give myself up to His Personality, that I first begin to have a real personality of my own ...

... Christ will indeed give you a real personality: but you must not go to Him for the sake of that. As long as your own personality is what you are bothering about you are not going to Him at all. The very first step is to try to forget about the self altogether. Your real, new self ... will not come as long as you are looking for it. It will come when you are looking for Him ... The same principle holds ... for more everyday matters ... You will never make a good impression ... until you stop thinking about what sort of impression you are making ... no man who bothers about originality will ever be original ... The principle runs through all life from top to bottom ... Look for yourself and you will find in the long run only hatred, loneliness, despair, rage, ruin, and decay. But look for Christ and you will find Him, and with Him everything else thrown in."

Again, this is the Christian perspective. Similar sentiments can be attributed to most major religions.

To believe in God IS to believe in yourself. There is no "something else." That is Christianity.

This has been tiring, and if you want to stop I'll respect your wishes. If you have further questions, ask and I will make an effort to address them truthfully.

As Chris here observed - Thank You, Chris - the purpose of my earlier texts was not to attack, because I know we all have our freedom of speech and belief. I am aware that my way of seeing our world - my philosophy - may seem somewhat sanctimonious; like an ex-member on these boards (whose name needs not be mentioned) claimed in a post, my way of saying things may be taken as a preach - during my young life I have met many people who consider me as a sanctimonious phony.

But I'm real. And as I have tried to express here, my philosophy isn't based on anyone else's text or speech, although manymany things have molded it to its final "form" - and this is why I always "attack" when the talk turns into citing the Bible.

Wedge - I really don't want to attack your thoughts; I just want to express couple of things I find very bizarre in Christianity.

As you cited C. S. Lewis: "---What I call 'My Wishes' become merely the desires...pumped into me by other men's thoughts..." - Well, I feel this very odd defense of Christian belief, because isn't Christianity itself based only on someone else's THOUGHTS, written material on a book called The Bible..? I really don't want to sound furious or attacking, or even simplistic, but these kind of defences make my blood boil.

As I said in an earlier post, I admit the world being a supernatural entity, and I indeed admit that supernatural things happen. My mind will keep always open - and quite possibly, if I would experience a "divine vision", I probably started believing in God. But to this day I can only admit that universe is a supernatural thing (which I believe on my own), and that Christian belief is just a religion among others (and they all are based on "other men's thoughts").

I really think the problem is that people are nowadays much more lost than they've been ever before, and that's why they want to believe in something "authentic". As I earlier said, I believe in myself by being ruthlessly honest to myself, admitting that I am healthily selfish because I work really hard in "sharing Goodness", joy and happiness for others. I really live for making others happy - that is the meaning of life for me.

That's why there's a lot of things in your text, Wedge, that I don't agree with. In black & white, you claim that a human being is "nothing" unless he/she starts to believe in God -

"...Christians say that you aren't going to find yourself without finding God. Every good thing you have and are is also a part of Him." Well, I BELIEVE that human beings are individuals; some are lucky & some or not, and thus the life will be what one makes of it.

"...Christianity is all about accepting responsibility for your sins, not weaseling out of them." Well, IN MY OPINION, it is bizarre to admit the "sins" to God and not to make an apologize to the person who suffered because of one's "sin". (And this is a true story: I have known a person who did dreadful things to people and said her conscience is clear because she begs forgiveness from God). Again, I say, when one is totally honest to his/hers own heart, it isn't necessary to believe in God to take responsibility for his/hers own actions.

"...And we certainly don't 'like' criticizing ourselves and admitting we have made an error...Life is not something we 'like', it is something we LIVE. Religion is like that." - Well, I don't know about you, but I sincerelly LIKE life and consider it a privilege to have been born into this world. Yes, life is definitely not all fun and games, but with a healthy philosophy one can make the most of it. And, as I have already said, I am brutally honest to myself, so I do indeed criticize me myself all the time and always admit when I've made an error - just like now , because my attempt here is definitely NOT to hurt your feelings, Wedge, and NOT create a big debate out of this - only to express my own opinion of religion in overall. My point is, as I've said, that people should more believe in themselves, seek their identities from within so that they wouldn't just believe in what other people say or write.

"To believe in God is to believe in yourself. There is no 'something else'. That is Christianity." - And my friend, Wedge, I have to AGREE with you that THIS IS TRULY Christianity's point. But, in my opinion, these words are brutal - just as God is in my opinion one of the most selfish creatures there has ever "been" - because Christianity attempts to make one feel guilt so that the "righteous way" leads to absolution. My point has all the time been, that if a person doesn't want to believe in him/herself, a religion definitely won't do it either - thus, it is the HUMAN BEING that has the key to "absolution" in one's own terms, NOT the religion !!

But as I said, we all have our freedom of speech & belief, so please, Wedge, do not take this as a personal attack. You're a great guy with good opinions (and a very funny photograph ) so it probably would be better if we stopped here - now when the both of us have made our points.

Again, please accept my apologies. I realize that you never "attacked," as such, and have amended my posts. Rest assured, you have not "hurt my feelings." Frankly, I'm not surprised you find certain elements of Christianity "bizzare." Like most things worth knowing, you need to grapple with them for a while. Faith is an active dialogue with doubt -- they are not mutually exclusive. Look at Thomas the Apostle.

You say we have made our points, but with your permission I would like to go further. I would point out that most of your arguments against God are founded on the presumption that he is a Human invention, and therefore circular. And that makes my blood boil. Allow me to explain:

ISSUE A

You asked: "... isn't Christianity itself based only on someone else's THOUGHTS, written material on a book called The Bible?" The Bible is two things. One, it is a historical account of kingdoms and geneologies ... who did what and when. Two, Christians consider it to be God's Word to us, which expresses the underlying Truth behind reality and reveals what our "selves" are all about. Since Christians consider God to be both the foundation of existence and our individual selves, claiming that it is a religion founded on anything "else" is an argument that can only be made AFTER you have decided that the Christian God does not exist as such ... NOT before.

ISSUE B

You said "I really think the problem is that people are nowadays much more lost than they've been ever before." I agree wholeheartedly. And I think this observation ought to tell you something. Think about what kind of people appear lost. How many monks or deeply religious figures seem "lost" to you? Take your time.

Speaking for myself, I think people are "lost" because they are looking for themselves in the obvious place, instead of the correct place. Does that sound like a disparity to you? Shouldn't the correct idea be the obvious one? It was obvious to many ancient figures that the Earth was flat -- just LOOK at it! It was obvious that the sun revolved around the Earth. It was obvious that all matter was composed of earth, air, water or fire. They were all wrong, of course. The fact of the matter is: reality is not always obvious, and the truth is frequently in the last place you would think to look.

You also said: "I work really hard in 'sharing Goodness,' joy and happiness for others. I really live for making others happy - that is the meaning of life for me." Congratulations! You're already more Christian than many people who claim to be. In a healthy Christian life there is NO DISTINCTION between living for God, living to help others, and living for yourself. Perhaps someday that will make sense to you.

ISSUE C

You said: "In black & white, you claim that a human being is "nothing" unless he/she starts to believe in God." That is not precisely what I said. My view is that a human being is nothing WITHOUT God, whether they believe in Him or not! I think that in the act of "coming to God," human beings take real possession of themselves.

Human beings are like swimmers in an ocean. You must swim as an individual, and it may benefit you to engage in mutually assistive behavior with other swimmers. You can live like this -- you can live a long time if a shark or particularly large wave doesn't get you first -- but sooner or later you drown, and you are not going to save yourself.

God created the ocean, and he walks on water. Someday he will come for you. If you are not prepared to accept it now, what makes you think you might be prepared to accept it then? Convinced it is impossible, you would sink like Peter. Something to think about.

ISSUE D

A "divine vision?" If I might ask, what sort of divine vision are you looking for? Angels appearing in your bedroom? Jesus' face in the clouds? This could all be written off and explained away the same way we scorn alien abduction stories. If you really want to experience a divine vision, you must actively seek communion with the divine. Even then, it will probably not be what you are expecting.

An analogy: As a college student, odds are not good that I will simply bump into the President of the University. I either seek him out or happen to be fortunate enough to be nearby when he is doing his thing. It's the same way with God. He is always available to everyone, but with few exceptions, he doesn't broadside the faithless. Most of them probably wouldn't believe Him anyway. This happens several times in the Bible, by the way.

To put it more succinctly: You want a television? Go get one. You want a divine vision? Go get one.

ISSUE E

You said: "God is in my opinion one of the most selfish creatures there has ever "been" - because Christianity attempts to make one feel guilt so that the "righteous way" leads to absolution."

Again, this argument ONLY WORKS if God does NOT exist and he is NOT the party personally offended by all that is evil and sinful. Guilt is not an evil, it is healthy. It is our conscience informing us that we have committed wrongs which have not been put right.

It is no good saying that Christianity "gives people guilt." Once you accept the idea of a Good and Loving God, it follows that you have gotten yourself wrong with Him by engaging in behavior which is abhorrent to His person and indeed His very nature. You OUGHT to feel guilt.

A perfect God, the source of all goodness and benevolence, would not be a warm and fuzzy figure. He would be the ultimate object of all that you desire -- goodness, truth, knowledge, beauty -- and at the same time He would be terrible and fearsome to you because you would have made yourself incompatible with Him.

As I said, a perfect God -- Absolute Reality -- could not tolerate evil in any form, which only exists as a corruption in the human spirit. You, Ken S., have committed evil. You continue to commit evil, and you will do it again. You may regret, you may repent; you may forget and forgive and try to live a good life. But what's done is done. There is evil in your life, even if only the smallest amount, and God cannot tolerate it. He literally CAN NOT tolerate it, or he would not be God!!!

Do you see the problem God poses? We can't erase the evil in life, even our own lives. You may spend your whole life trying -- and rightly so -- but ultimately there is nothing you can do to make it go away forever. And yet without making it go away, it would be impossible for you to be reconciled with a purely Good and Loving God.

Please understand that the absolution of sin is different from asking forgiveness (which good Christians should always do.) Absolution is a term for reconciling Man to God, and it is not something that Man CAN do. I tremble for the day when humans decided that they could absolve their own sins, for truly that was the day Paradise was lost.

The beauty, mystery, and miracle of Christianity is that it offers a solution. God reconciles Himself to Man by BECOMING Man. He will make up the difference, so to speak. He will ERASE the stain of sin with Grace so that Man can embrace God as his loving Father FREE of guilt!

So you see: Christianity does not GIVE guilt, it REMOVES it. It is in the very idea of an infinitely good Supreme Being that we find guilt in our own inadequacy. Christianity is a solution for embracing the Being while overcoming the burden of that guilt.

Therefore, in response to your complaint: if you wish to avoid guilt, you can either (a) claim that God does not exist and therefore you have no reason to feel guilty; or you can (b) claim that God DOES exist and that He is capable of reconciliation. What you are trying to do is argue that Christianity is immoral because it tries to make you feel guilty. You only feel guilty if you (a) accept God and (b) refuse to do anything about it. It is no good trying to use guilt as an argument against coming to Him through religion. If the guilt is there, that is exactly what you should do.

Do you see why I find YOUR arguments bizzare? You make arguments against a Christian God, but you ground these same arguments in the presumption that a Christian God does not exist. If a Christian God DOES exist, then all your arguments against him fall apart like cake in water. "People shouldn't feel guilty" and "People should live for themselves without bothering about God" are statements that can be made AFTER you have decided safely that He does not exist. The way you tell it, if God DID exist, we would always be guilty and never understanding ourselves. It's specious reasoning. It simply makes no sense. The truth is, we would always feel guilty and never understand ourselves if we thought God DID exist and did nothing about it!

That's an awful lot of uncomfortable trouble isn't it? It is certainly easier to simply believe that God does not exist and not worry about it, hoping that the guilt will just go away if you take the right attitude. But is that the truth. You are taking an awful risk, especially given that "truth" is hard to guess and rarely easy.

I ask you again: for all your interest, have you ever actually studied religion? And I don't just mean tossing the idea around in your head and assuming you'll sort it all out. That's the #1 source of ignorance and error. I mean reading and researching; grappling with real questions and understanding the answers. If you want to understand what Christianity is, I can recommend some good books to start with.

BTW, if you haven't noticed, it does no good to say "it probably would be better if we stopped here - now when the both of us have made our points." I think it is plain that I will never be finished making my points. See, I get my inspiration from God, and He has a WHOLE LOT of good ideas! (One of them was you, by the way.) If you really want to stop, just tell me plainly and I will.

This kind of blindsides those of us who don't enjoy individual interpretations of what is Christian and what isn't.

None of you is my pastor, and none of you, to my knowledge, hold any copyright on the absolute truth.

I know it is your mission to proselytize others by witnessing, but please do it under a thread header that lets unsuspecting souls know what they are getting into.

You've totally disrupted the fabric of the thread, IMO. And I could certainly tell you each a thing or two about what I believe to be Christian vs "christian" concepts. Everyone has his own, though...

Read the New Testament and find what Christ Himself taught and advocated. That's the TRUTH behind Christianity.

All the rest of it is stuff everyone made up and interpreted to justify having their own sections/denominations and all of it was tempered by the mores/politics of the times in which those sects were born.

Naysay me, now, all of you.

But stick to film music and we won't have anything to argue about.

: )

To my knowledge, I have never converted another person to Christianity. I don't claim to have the copyright on anything. I would like to think my comments thus far have been relatively inter-denominational. I haven't gone off about the Doctrine of Immaculate Conception or even Authority as it relates to Institution. Unless I missed my mark, most of the arguments I have presented are inspired directly by scripture, and not by the dogma of any particular denomination.

Ron, I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on the subject! You appear to have some strong feelings on the issue of the Church. But the topic would, perhaps, be better in its own thread. Problem is, we're not supposed to devote whole threads to non-film music topics. This thread just kind of wandered there over a song argument.

Anyway, since there has been an objection, let's get things back on track. Ken S., if you want to comment further feel free to e-mail me.

But do we agree about film music? Hmmmm...I truly wonder!

Do you agree Herrmann is best when taken in small doses?

Do you agree that Alfred Newman -- of all composers including Rozsa -- composed music with more heartfelt spirtuality than anyone has ever composed for movies?

Do you agree that the FSM Golden Age series is THE most important series of original soundtrack film music recordings in history?

I believe all those things to be true...cause they are for me. But you are different.

Songs...."A Certain Smile" is a wonder!

[Message edited by Ron Pulliam on 08-27-2001]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ron Pulliam:
Well....you could start a thread about the use of Christian hymns in films .... that would give the ardent digresser an opportunity to theosophize a bit and be true to thread topic.

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Well, Prokofiev was originally going to use 13th century Catholic hymns in "Alexander Nevsky," but when he researched them he decided they were too alien to be emotionally effective, so he wrote his own. I guess that might be construed as blasphemy?

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But do we agree about film music? Hmmmm...I truly wonder!
Do you agree Herrmann is best when taken in small doses?

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YES! He's like one of those essential vitamins and minerals. You can't live without him, but you don't want to ingest too much at one time.

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Do you agree that Alfred Newman -- of all composers including Rozsa -- composed music with more heartfelt spirtuality than anyone has ever composed for movies?

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Mmmmm ... Rozsa's theme for the Christ in Ben-Hur nonwithstanding ... yes. The Robe and the FANTASTIC "Hallelujah" from Newman's Hunchback are two shining examples. I cued up the "Halleluja" to play at the turn of the millenium. I wept and gnashed my teeth when I read about a rumored 10-minute+ version that was lost forever after a dispute over who wrote it.

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Do you agree that the FSM Golden Age series is THE most important series of original soundtrack film music recordings in history?

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I'm sure I would if I owned more than Untamed. My budget is such that I only buy scores that I've heard and that grabbed a hold of me. I haven't seen most of those old films ... but I love Waxman. And in terms of objective restoration, I can agree that FSM's work has truly been some of the most important preservation efforts in film score history.

You know what other song I can't believe I forgot? Smile, Darn Ya, Smile! It wasn't written for a film, but it was used in Who Framed Roger Rabbit And then there's Mr. Sandman from Back To The Future ...

Uh-oh. I may have just opened up a whole new can of worms: our favorite selections from MUSIC FROM AND INSPIRED BY ...!

Wedge, you're right about that one that I ground my arguments in the presumption that a Christian God (nor any other) does not exist. Maybe I'm the classic case for not believing until I see a thing with my own eyes. As you said, Wedge, I know it very well that I'm perhaps taking an awful risk by believing that God does not exist...but anyway, as you also indicated, He is forgiving - so I think I will be OK. And if not, then I will make the most of being a content lost soul, a ghost that haunts happily everybody

My friend Wedge, I rest my case - mainly because we are both right in our own terms for making Good in this chaotic world around us.

And, indeed, the can of worms, Wedge..! I hate most of all Walt Disney Records' THE TIGGER MOVIE...AND MORE of these "songs from and inspired by" albums - and my favorite one is ARACHNOPHOBIA (the extended original CD release).

I thought "threads" were supposed to be adhered to, subject-wise, regardless of who started them.

I now feel like I'm trespassing. Forgive me.

mine was a SINCERE apologize.

It really bugs me too, that threads develop into something else than the original topic...
I don't own my topics, I'm very well aware of that - but my only defence is, that both mine and Wedge's posts were sincere and civil; this was not an "ugly" debate... I hope not!

I am sincerely sorry.

There You'll Be - Faith Hill from Pearl Harbor

My Heart Will Go On - Celine Dion from Titanic

If We Hold On Together - Diana Ross from The Land Before Time

Wedge: You're cooler than I'd ever imagined.

EVERYBODY'S COOL!

For its time, THE GRADUATE was a rather break-through movie,
and many people pondered the specific referents in the Simon &
Garfunkel song The Sound of Silence. Interesting lyrics portraying
human disconnection and alienation.

Come Saturday Morning is a light, lyrical song that took on rather
tragic dimensions when employed in The Sterile Cuckoo. Liza’s inexorable
implosion seemed brutal when juxtaposed against the lyricism of the song.
“But we will remember long after Saturday’s gone.”

Oh Joan, you're soooo cool, even if you insist on being ON-TOPIC all the time.

Educators...they're always so strict!

Speaking of philosophical movie songs ... that sounds like a cue! Sing it with me, Bruthuh Chris!

Rome was having trouble, what a sad, sad, story
Needed a new leader to restore its former glory
Where oh where was he? Where could that man be?
We looked around, and then we found, the man for you and me,
And now it's ...

Springtime for Rome and Caligula
The Empire is happy and gay
We're marching to a faster pace
Look out! Here comes the master race

Springtime for Rome and Caligula
Winter for Christians and Jews
Springtime for Rome and Caligula
Come on, foot-troops, go tell 'em the news:

"I let Jesus Christ inside me, that is why they crucified me."
"Don't be stupid, be a smarty, come and join the Roman Army..."

Springtime for Rome and Caligula
Lion's are dyin' to bite!
Blood's runnin' from the cross again
Our god in Rome is boss again

Springtime for Rome and Caligula
We've found the right bunch to hate
Springtime for Rome and Caligula
We know just who to ELEVATE!