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Author	Topic: Re-recorded Herrmann scores

juha Oscar® Winner	There are plenty of (unfortunately) re-recorded Bernard Herrmann scores in the market but I don't know which one to buy. I've heard that Vertigo is the best but what about the others ? Are they comparable with the originals ? Which are the best ?
posted 08-19-2001 07:16 AM PT (US)

Mark Olivarez Oscar® Winner	Actually Lou Goldberg could give a better analysis of re-recorded Herrmann scores than I could but here it goes: The McNeely re-recordings are supposedly closer to Herrmanns original intentions. There are 2 versions of Vertigo, the actual film score, conducted by Muir Mathieson and the re-recording by McNeely. It has been said Herrmann did not like the way Mathieson conducted his score. I like McNeely's version but either version should do. Both versions are available from Varese. Psycho is available from Varese, conducted by McNeely. You could get the version that Danny Elfman did for the re-make which some people consider better than McNeely's version. The album is not as complete as the Varese version and the tempo is a bit quicker as well. There are several bootlegs of the original score out there. One is taken from the Special Edition Laser disc's isolated score. The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad is re-recorded by Varese and is complete but John Debney conducted and the tempo of some pieces are a little too slow. Varese had originally released a shorter version containing the original score but it is out of print and very hard to find. Soundtrack Library (bootleg CDR) has released a 70:00 min version of the original score, but given their past releases I'm hesitant to get it, plus being a bootleg you'll probably fork over quite a bit for it. Jason and the Argonauts is a re-recording on the Intrada label with Bruce Broughton conducting and it is outstanding. I recommend this one. Marnie is available from Varese but some people don't think it is a good interpretation by McNeely. I believe there is a bootleg of the original tracks out there. I have no problem with the Varese version. The Three Worlds of Gulliver is available from two labels; the original score on the Cloud Nine/ Silva Screen label or a re-recording done by Varese. The sound quality on the original isn't that great. I haven't heard the Varese version but quite a few people give it high marks. Also there were a couple of songs written (not by Herrmann) that are on the original and not included on Varese's release. There are a few more from Varese; The Trouble with Harry, Citizen Kane, The Ghost and Mrs. Muir (the original tracks and a version by Elmer Bernstein). Also the remake of Cape Fear (1991) uses the original score arranged by Elmer Bernstein. There are some versions of the original film out there on bootlegs of course. I hope this helps you somewhat. I personally think most of Varese's re-recordings are great and I know Marco Polo has some re-recordings available and coming up of Herrmann's work. They do an outstanding job as well.
posted 08-19-2001 09:08 AM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Oscar® Winner	The compilation with the LA Philharmonic and Esa-Pekka Salonen (on Sony) is very good as well. It includes parts/suites from The Man Who Knew Too Much, Psycho, Marnie, North by Northwest, Vertigo, Torn Curtain, Fahrenheit 451 and Taxi Driver. NP: Batman Forever (Elliot Goldenthal) (with a Psycho spoof )
posted 08-19-2001 09:32 AM PT (US)

juha Oscar® Winner	Thank you very much for your extensive info Mark ! I don´t own very much BH scores but your comments certainly made me want more. I´d love to hear Lou´s comments too !
posted 08-19-2001 10:14 AM PT (US)

Dr. Zaius Oscar® Winner	i prefer the original score of "ghost and mrs. muir" to the re-recording
posted 08-19-2001 12:17 PM PT (US)

Scorehunter Oscar® Nominee	its interesting that the salonen-compilation reaches a peak in slow tempo regarding the scene d´amour from vertigo: mathieson (on the original soundtrack): 5´04 bateman (on silva): 5´07 mcneely (on varese):5´09 elmer bernstein (on milan): 6´41 salonen: 6´49 but its a very fine recording!
posted 08-19-2001 12:21 PM PT (US)

SCimmerian Oscar® Winner	The best rerecordings of Herrmann scores are the McNeely Vertigo-simply way out in front of all other recordings by nature of the superior enginering and fabulous conducting.The Debney 7th Voyage is a sonic powerhouse cd with very agressive and spectacular playing by the Royal Scottish Orchestra its a must have cd yes indeed.Broughton's Jason and the Argonauts is another fantastic recording just super awesome sounding with deadon conducting and the Sinfonia of London playing their hearts out.The McNeely Psycho is the one to get,the tempos are correct and the sound is top notch.The 3 Worlds of Gulliver has a good recording not as spectacular as the 7th Voyage and I think the conducting by McNeely does not have the excitment of the Debney Sinbad cd; I hope Debney does Mysterious Island,if not then Broughton should do it on Intrada, McNeely is really good with the pretty and beautiful side of Herrmann, he just does not seem to get the more agressive and powerful music-It needs to be in your face and loud!Herrmann action cues need to be played kick-ass take no prisoners. The Morgan/Stromberg Marco Polo recordings are accurate renditions for the most part,but they have alot to be desired in the sound quality department.Still the best rerecording of Herrmann filmmusic still goes to the Gerhardt Citizen Kane, this is a must have cd to have, next to Herrmann himself on the OST nobody conducts Herrmann better than Gerhardt did. Stay away from the Silva recordings with Bateman and Raine, yuck.The Solonen Sony recording has good sound, but you can find better performances elsewhere,especially the Farenheit 451,the McNeely is way better.Herrmann's own rerecodings sound super spectacular, but the tempos are too slow on the otherhand he draws out certain effects from the orchesstra that you don't hear in other versions.Bernsteins's Ghost and Mrs.Muir has one of the best sounding recordings ever, but his interpretations of the music lacks the passion of the original.In any case with soundtracks the original performance usually is the version to go with. Rerecordings are worth looking into if they have spectacular sound and conductors that understand the music. All in all the Varese recordings are the best Herrmann redux.
posted 08-19-2001 06:40 PM PT (US)

Lou Goldberg Oscar® Winner	Of the re-records, I suggest staying away from Paul Bateman's recordings for Silva Screen and the McNeely Marnie (though it does have its fans) and Citizen Kane. I think Solonen's Sony CD with 451 and Man Who Knew Too Much, etc. is really wonderful. The Jason & Argonauts on Intrada is amazing! I think the good ones are: 3 Worlds of Gulliver, The Trouble w/Harry, Vertigo (except that the organ is off pitch, maybe Mathieson got it wrong, but I can't listen to it in any case), there is another Vertigo re-record that was done for an art film about Vertigo conducted by ??? and the Paris opera, it's good but not perfect. Mediocre ones are the 7th Voyage, the Varese 451 and suites (the 451 is good but the suites especially Anna are way off), the Twilight Zone episodes. Don't just take my word for it.....I suggest going to the on-line forum, Talking Herrmann, at the Bernard Herrmann web site. These guys went over every inch of these re-records with a fine tooth comb and talk about every pro & con these Cds have in great detail. Oops, forgot about Psycho. Haven't heard the Elfman arrangement for the Van Sant film, but the Varese gets a B+ Mark O covers a lot of ground in his post. I guess re-records also mean ones Herrmann did--his tempi are much slower than those used in the actual films but his Phase-4 Cds, now very cheaply available, are still hard to top. I also forgot to mention Garden of Evil, as re-recorded by Marco Polo and Jane Eyre too from the same label. I was a little disappointed with GOE, they did a near perfect version but it seemed to lack life somehow and that's something that's hard to articulate. But if you compared the GOE re-record with the original tracks as available on Varese, you might too have an idea of what I'm talking about. SC mentioned the Gerhardt--that's probably the best of the re-records anyhow. And he rates the 7th Voyage over the 3 Worlds. Maybe I need to go back and re-listen but current memory puts the 3 Worlds over the 7th (of course I prefer 3 Worlds as a score to 7th so that may be a biasing factor). And cheers to the guy who wants a Mysterious Island re-record. Could you imagine a really good re-record with all the passages as they are in the film (the existing original is missing the crucial bee music and seems "cut" differently than the cues are in the film) BUT HEY! Why are you interested in re-records when there are enough Herrmann originals to go for first! Turner/Rhino's North by Northwest Cloud Nine's 3 Worlds of Gulliver Unicorn's Obsession (w/other suites) FSM's Beneath the 12-Mile Reef Fox Classics's Jane Eyre (w/Laura) Varese's Herrmann at Fox series--Anna and the King of Siam, the Ghost and Mrs. Muir, GOE, King of Khyber Rifles, Man in G Flannel Suit, Tender is the Night, A Hatful of Rain, etc. For more details from me on each, I suggest using the search function and pulling up past topic posts on the subject made at the time when the CDs first showed up. [Message edited by Lou Goldberg on 08-19-2001]
posted 08-19-2001 08:53 PM PT (US)

John C Winfrey Oscar® Winner	Some of the Vareses are pretty good, some are uneven. I like many of them. The Psycho one does have that extra cue at the end not on any other release. Its right before the final sequence in the segment when Vera Miles goes into the basement and the skeleton spins around. That piece is not on any other recording. I like that cue a lot. Considering that he did only 55 scores, we have a lot of recordings of some of these now. Many, many different suites, LPs, CDs and so on. A lot to choose from but many are just being recorded over and over. Silva keeps reissuing some of their recordings on him in different combinations on several different CDs. There are many themes CDs out there with the same basic cues on them. Naked and the Dead is one exception. Its only on the Silva ones. Pretty soon all his film work will be recorded. More is on the way. Beneath the 12 Mile is pretty good from FSM. FSM and others are releasing more. Take care, John.
posted 08-28-2001 07:28 PM PT (US)

Lou Goldberg Oscar® Winner	Forgot to mention Torn Curtain (Rejected)-- Bateman and Salonen try for suites from this score. 2 tracks from the aborted orig. sessions are on the Hitchcock-Signatures in Suspense CD (the entire session is floating around but hasn't been booted to my knowledge). Elmer Bernstein recorded most of this back in the 70s and McNeely did a complete version for Varese recently. I like the Bernstein version but it's not on CD. I thought the Varese version was actually better than a lot of other people did, but you should know that it had mediocre buzz. The one thing about the Varese is that it is the most complete version--all the cues and worth it I suppose because the score itself is so interesting.
posted 08-29-2001 09:00 PM PT (US)

juha Oscar® Winner	Thank you all for the extensive information you have given me. It has been very interesting. There is no perfect re-recording but since the originals are not available we have to buy the re-recordings. Maybe they aren't that bad after all. Best, Juha.
posted 08-30-2001 08:00 AM PT (US)

SBD Oscar® Winner	I own both SiS and the Salonen-conducted comp. (thank you, MovieMusic.Com store) and the way I see it, from hearing the "Torn Curtain" prelude on SiS, it's no wonder that Herrmann's work was thrown out, but hearing it on "The Film Scores", one is practically forced to think, "Alfred, you jerk!". I guess the orchestra was fuller, or the players in the Universal studio orchestra weren't up to the task. Also, "Scene D'Amour" on tFS, albeit MUCH slower than in the film, is just as romantic.
posted 08-30-2001 08:02 AM PT (US)

shrubber Oscar® Winner	The Silva Screen "Citizen Kane" compilation album is a must-have, if only because of the excellent sound quality, the best I've heard on a CD for quite a long time. The Prague Symphony Orchestra has attracted a lot of flak, but I think they did the job well. I'm so-so about the Varese recordings: "7th Voyage of Sindbad" suffers from nervous conducting (step forward John Debney) and awful sound, whereas "Vertigo" is pretty good until the Nightmare cue, where McNeely gets it completely wrong. I slightly prefer the Mathieson recording (sorry Bernie!), but either will do. Same goes for both Varese recordings of "Ghost and Mrs Muir", one of my favourite Herrmann scores. Oh, and Intrada's "Jason and the Argonauts" is damn fine.
posted 08-31-2001 11:28 AM PT (US)

SCimmerian Oscar® Winner	Wrong. The Varese rerecording has awesome stupendous sound quality.The conducting is white hot and intense. What sort of system are you listening to? Silva? forget it.Can Bateman conduct out of a brown paper bag? The city of Prauge Philharmonic or The Royal Scottish National Orchestra. Hello time for a reality check, the Scottish slaughters that wantabe band, its a real professional world class orchestra, not some motley crew.
posted 08-31-2001 09:49 PM PT (US)

Lou Goldberg Oscar® Winner	Sorry Shrubber but SC is correct on this one, the Silva versions sound so off the mark that they are unplayable. They may have great sound but what does that matter if the music is rendered so poorly. Believe me, I wish it were otherwise and I could root for the Silva CDs, but alas, they are sh-it.
posted 09-01-2001 03:23 AM PT (US)

John C Winfrey Oscar® Winner	I have to agree with Lou and the above posts on that too. There are some of those versions that are so off its incredible. Dial M for Murder is awful and others too. Timing and tempo and performance not good on some of those. My three recent favorites on Herrmann are: 1. Beneath the 12 Mile Reef-FSM-excellent 2. the Herrmann cues from Egyptian on FSM issue-great stuff 3. Jason and Argonauts. Take care, John.
posted 09-02-2001 10:42 AM PT (US)

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