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Pearl Harbor TV Spot (Page 2)
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Topic: Pearl Harbor TV Spot

Probable

Oscar® Winner

I realize this is *slightly* off topic for the board, but...well...Submitted: The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was an act of self-defense.
[Message edited by Probable on 04-03-2001]
posted 04-03-2001 11:05 AM PT (US) 
Quill
Oscar® Winner

Hmmmmmm...
posted 04-03-2001 11:23 AM PT (US) 
Lancelot

Oscar® Winner

If it was self-defense, why did we declare war *after*...?
posted 04-03-2001 12:17 PM PT (US) 
scoreguy15
unregistered
I don't see how it was self-defense. Could you explain? And Shaun, were you serious when you said I was a Nazi?Clay G.
posted 04-03-2001 03:10 PM PT (US) 
Joey168943
Oscar® Winner

All this talk of war, music, racism and Jerry Bruckheimer is making me hungry. Does anybody know where I can get a big bag of Fish Chips...I'm obsessed now. I MUST HAVE THEM!!!!!!!Joey
posted 04-03-2001 04:09 PM PT (US) 
sean

Oscar® Winner

Shaun you're old skool...hehehehehehe, us young people eh?
posted 04-03-2001 04:33 PM PT (US) 
Lou Goldberg

Oscar® Winner

Rocco--No one HATES Zimmer as much as I do, but I sat down with The Thin Red Line and got caught up in it. Maybe it is overrated. It's not the kind of score you can just put on and play. I don't quite know how to decribe the style correctly--liturgical? ethereal?--but it is going for the kind of sound we associate with religious feeling.As for the Pearl Harbor spot, watching the bomb fall onto the American battleship looked neat (even if Kubrick did the same kind of shot 35+ yrs ago). I'm sure they'll get the look and the war stuff right, but like Enemy at the Gates, it will probably bog down anytime they try to put a human face on it, try for a story, or have anyone open their mouths.
posted 04-03-2001 08:26 PM PT (US) 
Probable

Oscar® Winner

It was self-defense. Japan's economy was (and still is) based, for all intents and purposes, entirely on trade. They have no natural resources to speak of, save themselves. The US was cutting off their trade routes, and killing their economy. When you have no resource base, you can not restart your economy. Once it's dead, it's dead. From the Japanese standpoint, they had no choice but to attack the US before things got any worse. As far as they were concerned, they were already at war.Naturally, the American press and historians don't make a habit of telling their own populace too much about this. Seriously, though, look it up.
posted 04-04-2001 04:01 PM PT (US) 
Quill
Oscar® Winner

I'm missing the logic...how would engaging a "blockading" enemy in armed conflict solve their problem?That might have been their reason, however skewed their logic might have been, but be careful with the term self-defense.
Are you also implying it was wrong for the US to block trade...that passive aggressive strategy has been used time and time again by the UN to soften aggressive countries that threaten other nations' sovereignty?
That would be equivalent to Suddam Hussein claiming his offensive actions were an act of self defense. Just food for thought...
posted 04-04-2001 04:20 PM PT (US) 
Probable

Oscar® Winner

Those were two very different situations. The embargo against Japan was not by the UN (not then existant) or by any alliance of nations, nor was it in response to aggression by Japan against another nation for the sake of financial exploitation.[Message edited by Probable on 04-04-2001]
posted 04-04-2001 05:09 PM PT (US) 
Probable

Oscar® Winner

In any case, my point is that things like this are very dependant on point of view. The US in particular tend to dramatize its history and rewrite it with its own unique 'slant.' I wasn't at Pearl Harbor, nor was I involved in the events preceding it, but I do know that the US's point of view, especially as portrayed in US popular media, is not the only, nor necessarily the correct point of view.
posted 04-04-2001 05:13 PM PT (US) 
scoreguy15
unregistered
Interesting. I've done studdies on Pearl Harbor in the past and never came across anything like this. This was truly very intersting, thanx for the input.Clay G.
posted 04-04-2001 07:42 PM PT (US) 
Quill
Oscar® Winner

Your absolutely right regarding the US being an isolated nation imposing an embargo...but remember, history is a very subjective thing. Depending on which book you read, you'll get ten different theories about what really drove the invasion. But in the end there is the irreputable fact that the Japanese were the armed aggressors in the conflict, nothing more.And what country does not use propaganda in a time of war? China's running that line right now on some non-issue to rally public support. Its a silly state of affairs but a viable cause builder.
posted 04-05-2001 07:43 AM PT (US) 
Probable

Oscar® Winner

True enough
posted 04-05-2001 11:45 PM PT (US) 
H Rocco
Oscar® Winner

Remember that after centuries of self-imposed isolation, Japan was more or less forced -- by the United States, ironically enough -- back into the international arena after 1853. The concept of democracy was foisted upon them, leading to internal national turmoil the likes of which hadn't been seen since the ancient civil war years.The Japan that entered World War II was still relatively young to diplomacy. Their disgraceful campaigns in China and the South Pacific were born as much of sheer naivete as of economic need (not to mention an inborn, implicit contempt for all things not Japanese). Japan's military leaders actually thought that attacking Pearl Harbor would HUMILIATE the United States to such a degree that the country would back off. I can't help thinking they saw Pearl Harbor as much in terms of a turf war as a genuine invitation to prolonged combat.
The greatest irony, to my mind, is that Japan achieved the precise economic dominion the nation wanted in the first place, but AFTER the war, and entirely without military might.
posted 04-06-2001 05:18 AM PT (US) 
Lancelot

Oscar® Winner

I don't think you can hold the United States wholly responsible for breaking Japan's isolationism....the world is pretty much to blame, for that.
posted 04-06-2001 11:33 AM PT (US) 
H Rocco
Oscar® Winner

EVENTUALLY the whole world is responsible ... inasmuch as everything ANYONE does redounds itself eventually. If America had not opened Japan, perhaps the English would have done it; I can think of no other nations of that time with the inclination or ability. I don't blame the United States for what Japan became, merely trying to explain how profoundly weird the Japanese felt in being introduced to a world that even then was growing increasingly smaller, when for most of her history, Japan knew very little of the world outside her own shores. (And after Kublai Khan's repeated failures to conquer Japan, and after expelling, or simply murdering, most of the country's few Christians -- the religion was brought there by Portuguese missionaries, who managed to keep a toehold for a while -- the Japanese spent several hundred years caring to learn little more. Although, not a little ironically, the ruler who enforced Japan's insulation, Ieyasu Tokugawa, died of indigestion after gorging himself on tempura -- a Portuguese invention!)Paging Mr. Ruger, paging Mr. Ruger, you are needed at thread 005689.2

posted 04-06-2001 02:30 PM PT (US) 
scoreguy15
unregistered
The reason America did that to Japan was because of Japan attacking all these other countries. Therefore it was not self-defense.Clay G.
posted 04-06-2001 03:31 PM PT (US) 
Probable

Oscar® Winner

Succintly - if one-sidedly - put. That's an interesting perspective, though, coming from a country that owes its existence to aggressive expansionism. In any case, the US wasn't one of the countries being invaded, yet it chose to enforce a blockade. Still self-defense, from the Japanese perspective.
posted 04-06-2001 05:22 PM PT (US) 
scoreguy15
unregistered
Speaking of one-sided (off the topic thingy here), has anyone noticed that almost all War movies are one-sided?! That pisses me off! Getting back the deffense thing... The reason the U.S. did that was because of Japan destroying our alie countries. W/o any alies, wheather we were to join the war or not, it's better to have them wrather then taking a risk and getting killed. Wouldn't you agree?Clay G.
posted 04-06-2001 08:05 PM PT (US) 
Lancelot

Oscar® Winner

Well..."Gettysburg" was pretty fairly divided...
posted 04-06-2001 08:37 PM PT (US) 
H Rocco
Oscar® Winner

Clay: First, please understand I am NOT yelling at you because of stuff you don't know (I'm twice your age, and someone who's long concentrated on history besides, and didn't know much about WW2 when I was fifteen either, although it was already beginning to fascinate me) --US trade restrictions on Japan, such as they were (ALL trade didn't really end until after war actually broke out -- before that, certain Japanese products such as silk were still commonly imported to the United States and Europe) had more to do with stifling Japan's obvious designs on China and Southeast Asia. These were not our ALLIES per se, or else we WOULD have probably leapt to their defense -- certainly as early as 1937. We didn't. It was not considered to be in our best interest. (Let's leave aside the history of the Flying Tigers for the moment.)
The American people in this seven-or-eight-year period that led to Pearl Harbor were still wrestling with the crushing effect of the Depression, and had no interest in fighting a war that was "someone else's business." The war in Europe had been raging full-fledged for over two years already. By many, if not most accounts, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt was dying to get into the European conflict, but American public sentiment was completely against it. If the Japanese had NOT attacked Pearl Harbor, who knows how long it might have taken for the United States to get into the war? If at all?
It's been alleged that there was a deliberate miscommunication between the White House and the Imperial Palace immediately before Pearl Harbor (although I wouldn't go so far as to suggest, as some have, that Washington knew Pearl Harbor was going to happen before it did, and let it happen because this was the thing that would finally inflame the American people into WANTING a war. But certainly Roosevelt and company knew that some drastic break with Japan had to happen -- perhaps they believed that simply spurning Japan's offers would lead to a less overt declaration of intent.)
Trivia note: Japan never had a chance. Militarily, they were never competent to face the United States. ONE SINGLE PLANT in America churned out more battleships than was possible for ALL of Japan's plants to build during the length of the entire war. It was an earthshaking folly on Japan's part (only a handful of their military seemed to recognize this), and, again, I think born of a particular navel-gazing naievete about the rest of the world in general.
As for "two-sided" war films, that's rarely been the nature of the genre -- "us vs. them" being the whole point of war itself -- and most of the best I can think of offhand aren't American: the French GRAND ILLUSION, the Japanese THE BURMESE HARP, and the Japanese-American coproduction HELL IN THE PACIFIC (only two characters in the whole thing, sort of a war movie in microcosm.)
Where ARE you, Mr. Ruger? At least show up to shoot me down!

posted 04-06-2001 10:01 PM PT (US) 
scoreguy15
unregistered
Hmmmm, our teachers suck at school. So that could be why I am not getting all the facts. Thanx for the insight though. I really enjoy learning about Pearl Harbor. I always have, and now the movie is coming out and it's like, whoa! You know what I mean? But I really enjoy hearing everyone's views.Clay G.
NP Gladiator
posted 04-07-2001 08:20 PM PT (US) 
H Rocco
Oscar® Winner

y'know, Clay, I don't know where you go to school, but maybe your teachers DO suck. My mother is a college teacher, and she is commonly appalled at how little the students she inherits have actually learned over the previous twelve-plus years before they reach her.If only teaching were more valued a profession, more competent people might be drawn to it. But that's a whole other subject.

posted 04-07-2001 10:08 PM PT (US) Old Infopop Software by UBB
