Best idea I've heard in awhile.

quote:

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Originally posted by wistiti:

As for the movie, the only part I found useless was the whole "Romeo-and-Juliet-in-Stalingrad" routine.

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Of course, that was only added in to make it a wider-based appeal.

I'm gonna pass in this score. Not because I'm doing a Horner-bash, but because it's (in my opinion) not a keeper.

Kevin

quote:

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Originally posted by Lancelot:
Well, maybe if the film was directed by Luc Besson...

...people would still bitch about the score.

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Yeah because he would use Eric Serra and he is basically a waste. At least Horner can write music.

But it had so many good things in it that it turns my stomach and forces tears with how badly they botched it. This was a real 'could have been' but wasn't.

A friend of mine has read the books this film was based on and says if they'd stuck to those, filled the film in with sniper training and technique, they'd have a genuine winner.

But instead they decided to reduce the conflict, the sniper battle, to backdrop for that ancient right-wing adolescent fantasy-ritual Hollywood wants to feed kids these days: the hero defeats both a rival and a father figure to lay with the girl.

Basically they made yet another film for 19 year olds putting the script through an intelligence filter for the rest of us.

James Horner is the enemy at my speakers. I just read the Son of Kong/Most Dangerous Game liner notes with Max Steiner up 24 hours at a time composing. Real work. Then I think of JH cribbing Schindler's List and Alexander Nevsky and going to bed early for money Steiner could only dream of. It makes me sick--the bad really do sleep well.

Horner is a hack, a thief, a whore, a small whinny little bug that tells other people to re-park his cars.

I am sick and tired of people on this board defending this slug. He can't compose. Period. No, not period, there's more. His ideas about film music are just plain bad. He is a plague that rots every film he touches. He needs to be run out of Hollywood on a rail and forced to work in fast food where he belongs. Why people can't see this is beyond me. Anyone who can listen to this rip off and still defend him needs to hang his head in shame. At least someone needs to hang their head in shame since JH certainly isn't going to do it.

There are not enough negative adjectives in our language to descibe this black worm. If I could kill him and get away with it, I would. Maybe if I played his scores in court, the judge and jury would consider it justifiable homicide. Maybe it wouldn't even be considered murder, just cruelty to animals. But why should I bother, he had to suck the devil's sperm and sell his soul to the devil to get where he is without any talent, so I know his ultimate fate.

I mean, you really don't know Horner do you? Do you know that Horner stole Schindler's List and Alexander Nevsky and "went to bed early", as you put it?

This kind of hatred is absolutely disgusting and what really makes me sick.

"If I could kill him and get away with it, I would"

Jesus Christ, you really are sick and obsessed with hating Horner, are you?

Sure, dislike his music, but to really hate the man... especially since you don't know anything about him, than the stories we all have been told (such as that car story), and what all the other Horner haters want us to believe is true.

Get a life, and stop posting crap such as this.

These kinds of comments about Horner have been found on every discussion board about film music, not just here. It's up to people who are interested in defending Horner to actually defend Horner, and not resort to telling the offenders to "get a life," "stop posting crap like this," etc. That kind of defense only stirs the mudslinging pot and will only keep your chances from posting here even less. If people want to see more fruitful discussions and less "crap" postings, it's up to them to be fruitful instead of adding to the reasons they claim for not wanting to participate in the first place.

There are plenty of excellent discussions here and elsewhere that bring up the same "cribbing" issue (with far more "honorable" composers than James Horner), and have been quite academic in nature.

I look forward to your contributions here:

I think the point I was trying to make was not a show of support for Lou, but a hope that the mudslinging would stop and that a REAL defense of Horner's music would show up.

Too much to ask, or should I start calling people names, too, including James Horner?

I am not trying to take sides, or anything of the sort. As a dude who's trying to nuture better discussions around here, can you understand where I am coming from? It seems all people want to do is pit each other against one another. Not good!

Well, put and my feelings exactly. There are at least a dozen more gifted and creative composers in the business than James Horner but they'll never have the popular appeal that he does but, then again, if they sought such a position they'd probably be mere dilluted versions of themselves. Who'd ever want that?

I am sure that there are some great discussing going on here, but it is hard no notice them when the Horner bashing seems to crop up everywhere. And there's really nothing wrong with bashing Horner's music, as long as we don't have to read comments like those Lou shared with us. I don't like when it gets ugly and insulting, that's all.

On the whole I don't believe that composers are lazier than in times past but they do work in a very different creative enviroment than the Golden agers. I can imagine, for example, Patrick Doyle or Basil Poledouris or Thomas Newman putting in the hours, blood, sweat, and tears on every film that affords them the opportunity.

The truth is that there were as many phonies back in the good ol days as there are now. The best have the fruits of their labor as proof of their dedication and the others can be as transparent as Saran Wrap. Great film composers are more than jingle meisters, they are creative individuals who accept challenge and welcome growth. For me James Horner is the ultimate jingle meister of our day and the reason he is constantly under fire is that more and more people are coming to realise the same.

This film will see the majority of its box office receipts in the US...which german and russian actors would you choose, and how would you market it?

****SPOILERS BELOW****

When Tania starts telling about her Jewish parents, there is a long, drawn out, sorrowful monologue telling Jude Law's character how the Nazi's tied her parents together and killed them when the citizens were taken from Stalingrad.

"I know they died together."

Umm...then what was the deal with the Russain women crying about how Tania was her daughter? Not to mention her response to the death of Sasha, who would then be her brother?

Something I missed?

****END SPOILERS****

!!!!!!!!!SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!

Look, people, I've sat down and written critiques of scores in my most polite academic prose. Fine. But they don't express my emotions about things. And emotions matter. If I didn't have joy or disgust stirred up by this man and his decisions, there would be no reason to write about him anyway.

OK, I called Horner a hack, a whore. How was I supposed to say it? "Horner's scores often retread similar themes and ideas from his earlier work, borrow from the works of others and yet he commands the highest fees of his career at this point...." Whatever words I use, it's the same thing: he's a hack and a whore, that's how you describe someone who does those things. He's cribbing Schindler and Nevsky, it's obvious. But I'm supposed to use one set of words over another to descibe this just because some babies don't like to experience someone being angry and uncouth. Ridiculous.

Quill said my words shouldn't be tolerated. What kind of thought police do you belong to? Back off! If Horner is allowed to do to my ears and mind what he does, then somewhere I too should have the freedom to speak harshly in a way you might not like either. Some of the freshest ideas in our culture come from the coarsest places: Porn, Zappa, Rap, Punk, Camille Paglia, Susie Bright, Schopenhauer, Alice Cooper, The Man Show, South Park, Peckinpah, Jodorosky, Euro-trash, Fight Club, etc. etc. etc.

Live with it. Deal.

Pete might not like me or what I say. You may be offended. But if Pete were to gag or axe me, that would be the real offense, but who knows if you see that. The one good thing about Pete is that he has that much insight so far.

People--wake up! Be OUTRAGEOUS! I am Boudu Saved From Drowning. The heretic monkey bringing new blood into your in-bred clan. If you can't discuss this stuff and not stand a little spice with it, then god help you dried out sticks.

Andy: "Remarks like.....are completely unnecessary and one of the reasons I rarely take part in the discussions at this board."

Oh, forgive me Andy for not recognizing your importance and sensitive nature and making room for you to descend from on high. Andy, I didn't ask you to take part in discussions at this board. If this place isn't the high minded, stuffy, old man's club you want it to be, if you can't take the heat, or ignore what I say without getting having to get into it yourself, then go away.

On the other hand, you slammed me and defended Horner with the same passion I put into it so there may be hope for you yet. Stick around and duke it out. Good luck though, you're defending Horner, so you're on the losing team.

Andy: "Get a life and stop posting crap like this."

Andy, I have a life (such as it is), and one of the most enjoyable things I like to do with it is tell people how evil James Horner is. If you only knew how hard I was laughing while I was writing my initial post... You kill-joy, you are trying to take my fun away!

Also, discussions about the work habits of composers were not to be taken so literally either.

I just personally happen to admire people who are perfectionists and have high standards in their work. I do admire the work habits of say a Bouguereau, whose record 7 day a week, 10 hours a day, 45 years of non-stop painting just astounds me. But sometimes people can create very easily. Renoir could finish most of his canvases in a day. The hours of work put into something doesn't always equal how good it will be. Pete caught it and put my phrase in quotes. My question is really about when people draw the line on when something is polished or not. Maybe Horner works just as hard and as long into the night as Steiner did (and if so, he should stop because all the work in the world isn't going to help at this point), but he OKs stuff Steiner would be ashamed to let by. That's the real point.

Steiner took the time to meet a standard of quality even when he knew the payment/feedback wasn't going to be there for him. He went the extra mile. And still he wasn't as talented as others, but atleast his stuff was mostly his own. If Horner goes the extra mile, it's wasted, whatever water he had in the well, it's gone dry, otherwise he wouldn't need to crib, he could come up with it on his own. And if you can't come up with it on your own and know it, it's time to move aside and retire. Only hacks and whores keep at it at that point.

So, once again, for the first graders who STILL don't get it. With Enemy at the Gates, Horner has shown once again and for all time that he has no standards: he is a thief, he is talentless, his music whether original or cribbed does not work in the films it accompanies nor as music to listen to by itself. His role in our culture is unwarranted and needs to diminish. Certainly, the people who defend him are free to be moved by what he writes and be glad he is around. The market serves all tastes. I like the fine wine, filet mignon, pheasant and truffles, Swiss Chocolate, and 7 chakra connection with a soul mate that is the music of Bernard Herrmann and Miklos Rozsa. If you want it, fine, you can have the Ripple and MD 20/20, dog food and road kill, expensive lap dances with bored soulness scags that is the excrement of James Horner. Just please keep it out of the movies I watch, the CDs I buy, and the discussions of composers of original music I have. Horner does not deserve to be in their company.

Ah. Now saying all that was cathartic. Like resting in a hot tub for an hour. I feel great. I have once again done my good deed in the defense of art. But unfortunately, I feel this will not be the last time my services will be called for.

Thanks to Quill for mentioning the phrase tongue-in-cheek. I wish there were a t-i-c icon around here, I would use it often.

NP: Boy on a Dolphin (Hugo Friedhofer)