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      Enemy at Gates-a brief assessment of movie and score (Page 3)

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    Topic:   Enemy at Gates-a brief assessment of movie and score

     JJH
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    in all seriousness, there's enough variation and all that in his themes, that a film music concert by Horner might be pretty good.

    as long as he plays the villain theme once, and that one long melodic line he uses ad nauseum.

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    posted 04-06-2001 03:43 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    That's kind of what I meant, although I didn't say so. One COULD narrow it down to a very enjoyable concert -- every single tic used just once apiece, I'd actually go see that.

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    posted 04-06-2001 05:19 PM PT (US)     

     Skexis
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    I enjoyed both the movie and the score, although, admittedly, the movie more so than the score.

    Granted, the focus of the movie was on an idealistic love story instead of on tactics of warfare, but as was posted some time previously, the goal of a movie is to make money, in the end. That means that to achieve a wider audience, a universal theme was tied in. Taking that into account, I find the film rather refreshing in terms of balancing wide appeal and military suspense, not to mention plain quality when compared to some of the movies we see coming out these days. Charlie's Angels 2, Kangaroo Jack, and God forbid the new "Cancun Uncut" (or whatever it is) movie see the light of day.

    Now, for whatever reason, Mr. Horner decided to use the theme he did. Perhaps he wanted to recall some of the emotion present in Schindler's List without hearkening fully back to it. Judging from what I've read, most of you would say he failed in that regard. But it's still not really your judgment call to make on how much work he put into it-- regardless of how (in)sincere your death threats are.

    Enemy at the Gates is not, by far, my favorite movie score, but I did buy the soundtrack based on how I felt during the movie. *shrug* I'm not really disappointed with that decision. I enjoy the actual instrumentation, as well as the male russian-esque chorus pieces scattered throughout. I think, in the end, he made a score that works, and stuck with it.

    The preceding has been brought to you by self-gratification, and the letter Q. =)

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    posted 04-19-2003 01:50 AM PT (US)     

     franz_conrad
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    Surely this is the longest running topic in the history of the moviemusic.com. And I think every possible argument has been leveled for and against Horner - you could nail down the man's character on the basis of some of the previous posts to somewhere between antichrist and film music messiah.

    I honestly wish one of those were true. It would make the man so much more interesting than he is. One thing I have always appreciated about Horner is that he has given film music fans the widest possible choice set with respect to what music from each score he makes available. I don't want to hear 70 minutes plus of Enemy at the Gates, or 60 minutes plus of Windtalkers, or even the 70 minutes plus of the superb Four Feathers. But Horner in his lengthy releases has given me the choice of which subset of his music I would like to listen to.

    Either through CD programming, or through burning shorter CDs, I often listen to the following selections from his recent scores, and I find each quite enjoyable if I'm in the mood:

    Enemy at the Gates: 1, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12.

    Windtalkers: 3, 2, 4, 6, 9, 11.

    A Beautiful Mind: 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 14, 16. (I actually think this is a wonderful score, despite the obvious self-quotation. You can approach the self-quotation from this point of view I feel: each time he does it he does it better than the last, and I feel in ABM Horner perfected material he had developed in Bobby Fischer, Sneakers, Bicentennial Man and other scores.)

    The Four Feathers: 1, 2, 7, 11, 10, 12, 13.

    Unfortunately I've never heard Iris, so I can't really comment on that one.

    I feel deep down that Horner's 'quotation of a certain composition by John Williams' was never actually a quotation. Had it appeared for the first time in Enemy, the suggestion would be fair enough - it's a film set in Eastern Europe, it's during WWII, lots of people die painful deaths, hey!, that theme by John Williams really captured this feeling, I wonder if I can get away with plagiarising an Oscar winner! Yes, I'm being coy, but I could imagine it.

    But the Tanya theme (let's call it by its intended name) appeared long before Enemy at the Gates in Horner's work, and I would like to suggest that it grew naturally out of his own compositional style. It appears for a brief moment in Apollo 13 (I can't remember where, but I remember it is there). You can hear it for a moment in the first Titanic album, around 6:18 minutes into the track 'Death of Titanic'. Listen for it after that almighty orchestral blast at 6:05-6:10 into the piece. When Horner came to Enemy and devised the theme that he did for Tanya, he was dusting off an old motif from his earlier scores. The question becomes: was he imitating Williams when he first devised it? In the context of those films, it just seems highly unlikely that he would have consciously done so, without the obvious connection between Enemy and Schindler.

    What I do like about Tanya's theme is the way Horner developed it next. With some slight alteration it becomes the lovely theme for Windtalkers (listen to track 2), and with further adjustment, that sweeping theme from Four Feathers (track 13, around the 6 minute and then the 8 minute mark). And now that he's explored that theme in about as many ways as he can, I suspect that with his next score (does anyone know what that is BTW?), he'll move onto more of the melodic type of material we heard in Four Feathers.

    Film score plagiarism is always one of those interesting things. You have to wonder when John Williams does the Grail theme for Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, does he intend it to sound like Jerry Goldsmith's Patton theme? Or when Zimmer does that beautiful moment at the beginning of The Village in the Thin Red Line, does he mean to sound exactly like Stravinsky's Firebird? You could go on... and I think in the end you'd miss the point. It all sounds good. Long live Horner and his long albums.

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    posted 04-19-2003 04:10 AM PT (US)     

     Dinko
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    quote:
    Originally posted by franz_conrad:
    Surely this is the longest running topic in the history of the moviemusic.com.

    If by topic you mean 'Thread', then nope. There was one which went on and on for about twice this long. It now appears to have been deleted. Was it too long?
    If by topic you mean 'issue' or 'argument' then nope. We still need to resolve the fish chip problem, the synth banging syndrome, what good film music should be, and so on.

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    posted 04-19-2003 06:17 AM PT (US)     

     workaluk
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    All i have to say is that,in my opinion James Horner is a melodic composer,sure some of is themes are quite alike,but if they are emotional,sad,happy,action like or sentimental then i don't mind....and his not the only one,John Williams wich i like very much,did the same thing with AOTC,and Last Cruzade,listen to The Arena and Belly of the Steel Beast and you'll see.............


    What i mean is that every composer makes some themes alike,and if they are good,then

    THE HELL WITH IT,LET THEM..............

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    posted 04-19-2003 11:44 AM PT (US)     

     jonathan_little
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    OK, some period of time has expired since I saw this film and I continue to recognize this:

  • The score still sucks.
  • The movie still sucks, mostly because of the score.

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  • posted 04-19-2003 03:15 PM PT (US)     

     Dinko
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    Mr. Little, it is now painfully clear that you are an extremist with no valid viewpoint. You maintain an unyielding opinion regarding the great talents of Maestro James Horner. It is obvious you will not change that opinion. There is therefore no point in discussing His talent with you.

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    posted 04-19-2003 03:20 PM PT (US)     

     scoreguy16
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    I personally like this score. It has some beautiful themes in it... however there's one theme that gets repeated, over and over and over again. It's the trumpet theme at 1:53 in the first track... and then a billion other places on the CD. But my favorite part of this score is at the end of track 10. From about 9 minutes to the end of the track, it is so dramatic and beautiful. But this is all just my opinion...

    Clayton

    PS>I liked how this CD has CD Text, pretty nifty!

    NP> Enemy At The Gates (Betrayal)

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    posted 04-20-2003 10:05 PM PT (US)     

     scoreguy16
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    By the way, i know this Album is nearly 80 minutes, but there was like this 2 second portion of the score that i really liked but it was missing on the CD. It would be right at 6:39 in track 11. It's where it kind of builds up to the theme that is played. (Sorry, i can't read or write music so i don't know musical tearms or anything like that)

    Clayton

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    posted 04-20-2003 10:17 PM PT (US)     
     

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