There's the only answer you'll ever get...

quote:

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Originally posted by Jeron:
There's a philosophy at MV where everyone is there to lend a hand to everyone else - it's a buddy system that gives all the composers equal ground to learn and advance.

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I don't think that can be all. I doubt that this can result in a structured score like Chicken Run (noticed the return of the Pie Machine theme when Mrs. Tweedy is caught in the machine?)

Now as far as who wrote which theme? Who knows... Perhaps all the themes were cooperatively derived. "Harry, I'll write 5 notes, then you write the next 5, then we'll switch!" LOL!

Jeron

As in Powell hums the theme, and HGW writes it down? Or, Powell writes a theme, and HGW patches up the holes and orchestrates a little bit? Or, Powell eats pancakes and drinks coffee, while HGW starves and writes music?? Heh. It is a very bizarre notion that two people can write a score in the 50/50 sense. But, MV is known for turning the scoring process into a manufacturing plant line....

<<<<< I like that little guy

Tim

I think it is always a pleasant surprise to hear that a film composer of Zimmer's outstanding ability is willing and able to work with other talented composers on his projects. Often it is the case that a creative talent feels restricted or uneasy about combining with another talent…..and that is fair enough…..everyone is different.

However, during the 90's, Zimmer's Media Ventures has blown film-scoring convention apart…..part of the MV culture being the pooling of resource and the harmonization of disparate talent. Zimmer and his school of talented composers are pioneering new and unexplored musical terrain whilst maintaining many of the traditional values that makes composing for film an art-form that we all admire. Many of today's finest and most successful film composers learned their trade at Media Ventures, Mancina for example, and apart from Zimmer himself, many other aspiring and established composers (such as the immensely talented John Powell) continue to be based at the Zimmer stable.

Versatility, depth, and sheer devotion to the musical needs of the movie are the hallmarks of Media Ventures' output…..values expounded by its gallery of astute and assiduous film composers past and present. Each movie that is connected with Media Ventures is usually blessed with film scoring excellence…..indeed, every new film score from the Zimmer school, whether it is from Gregson-Williams, Powell, Zimmer, Mancina, Rabin etc, or a combination of these composers, is an event that I eagerly anticipate, such is the quality, diversity and expertly appropriate application of music to movie that these composers provide.

Not only does Zimmer often work with other composers on any single film score, he also often employs multiple orchestrators on his scores, as well as other additional creative talent, such as the conductor. This combination of numerous creative talents has benefited cinema for much of the '90s…..and long may it continue.

The combination of composers, orchestrators, conductors, arrangers and other technicians….and the frequent application of remarkable choral and solo talent, creates movie scores greater than the sum of its parts…..the epitome of the sophisticated, mature and complete '90s film score experience. As I have said, this pooling of talent has led to the creation of some of the best scores of the '90s……and that is quite remarkable during a period of generally exceptional film music and movie quality.

This is taking nothing away from the achievements of Horner, Elfman, Williams and other excellent 'lone' composers during the '90s……..these men too have continued to create marvellous movie scores during a period of rapidly improving standards and increasing sophistication. However, it is my belief that the line-up of creative talent that revolves around a Media Ventures' score can only BENEFIT those movies.

To me, the benchmark by which film scores today are judged is consistently being raised thanks chiefly to "The Zimmer School…..Purveyors of Excellence".

You said - "If Chicken Run is the product of a compositional assembly line, then Long Live the Assembly Line!....." - etc, etc.

Perfectly put. I have never understood why a score that is the product of one composer's inspiration should naturally be better than a film score that is the product of a team of composers and orchestrators. If anything, the reverse should be true.....and the reverse often is true.

It strikes me that some people have their favourite composers, and are naturally inclined to prejudice against other composers' work, no matter how accomplished and appropriate it may be. Many frequentors of this message-board, including the Board Admistrator (of all people), seem to suffer from this puzzling form of prejudice. Whilst PeterK's opinions are always interesting, and welcome, it is always disappointing, and more than a little surprising, that he should communicate such disenchantment with modern filmscoring techniques and disillusionment with Media Ventures' stable of consummate film-scoring talents - PeterK's obvious love of movie-music, yet apparent scepticism of Media Ventures' modus operandi is wholly incongruous. Of course, PeterK is entitled to his opinion, but does he really believe that all scores that emanate from Media Ventures are somehow inferior?

As far as I am concerned, a film score should be judged on its appropriateness and success in enhancing the mood, narrative and agenda of a given movie. Any concerns about how the finished film-score was arrived at, as Peter seems to indulge in, are quite simply unimportant, and can be prejudicial. As Tim so eloquently stated, if it takes 40 composers to write brass lines that would make John Williams blush, so be it.

Owing to this apparent polarization of views here at the message board – you know, some people say Goldsmith is great but Zimmer isn't, some people say Zimmer is great but Goldsmith isn't, some people have little interest in composers who worked before 1970, and others do not care much for '90s cinema, some people hate the idea of more than one composer working on a score, others welcome it – I thought it would be interesting to share with you my perspective on cinema as a whole. My only concern is with the finished product, and I am not concerned about how many orchestrators, conductors, composers or arrangers were involved with the scoring process.

Though cinema is certainly multi-faceted, rather than seeing it as a series of compartmentalized elements, I tend to regard English-language cinema, since the advent of talking pictures, as a single entity with various shadings. Though I might criticize much of Goldsmith's '90s output, I regard the main body of his work as containing some of the best examples of film scoring, and though I admire Horner as one the best film composers in cinema history, I willingly accept that not all of his film-score work is of the highest quality. It's the same with any other facet of cinema, from whichever period of cinema history, there are good moments and there are bad.

As far as important and influential film composers go, here's my personal list in order of importance based on the whole history of English-language talking pictures. The criteria for inclusion is strictly based on my own limited knowledge of cinema, and is not intended to attempt to reflect either popular taste or general filmscore-enthusiast opinion.

The five star film composers…..

1) Max Steiner *****

Take a look at this man's filmography and one could easily be forgiven for thinking it constituted the career output of ten individual movie composers, such is the incredible number of detailed and large-scale film scores. On top of that is the amazing consistency of Steiner's success, both the scores he wrote and the high quality of many of the movies he worked on. Of course, of even more importance than any single Steiner score, is the impact this man's career output had on the development and enhancement of the art of movie-scoring. Steiner was the most important pioneer of modern film scoring practice back in the 30s, and even in his 70s he composed one of the most popular pieces of music ever written, his magical theme to A SUMMER PLACE.

2) John Williams *****

One of the very few movie composers who have become household names, Williams has also demonstrated an amazing ability to musically interpret the movies on which he works. But it is the inspired brilliance of his themes employed in such movies as JAWS, STAR WARS, ET, RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK and so on, that have endeared him to the public at large. Williams is a true all-rounder; though he is famous for his mainly symphonic film scores, his life's work covers all musical territory and his willingness to employ new musical ideas to his film scores shows no sign of waning. Nobody has done more to popularize film music and bring it to the attention of the general public.

3) Alfred Newman *****

The deserved nominee for more Academy Awards than any other contributor to cinema (he won nine times), Newman is quite simply an institution. Heading Fox's music department for 30 years and the incredible number and diversity of movies on which he worked are indicative of Newman's industry status. He wasn't just a composer, he was a musical genius. He could turn his hand to any musical style, and created many of the most memorable film scores in cinema history, not least his mesmerizing SONG OF BERNADETTE.

4) Jerry Goldsmith *****

Goldsmith went where other film composers feared to tread. No other movie composer has influenced movie-scoring development over the past thirty years as profoundly as Goldsmith. To this day, virtually all of the modern and successful film composers, including Horner and Zimmer, refer to Goldsmith's pioneering approach to filmscoring in many of their own scores. From the early 60s, Goldsmith displayed an extraordinary versatility and dynamism that literally shattered film-scoring convention - Goldsmith nailed an amazing array of genres with uncanny accuracy by approaching his movie assignments with an uncompromising and unflinching attitude. Considering all of Goldsmith's achievements as a film composer, it seems a little unjust that he hasn't garnered greater public recognition.

5) Hans Zimmer (and Media Ventures) *****

Perhaps the greatest current pioneer of movie music progression, Zimmer, like Newman, has also become an institution. Media Ventures is an organization that has led film-score progression for the past ten years, its ethos being a devotion to fulfilling the musical needs of the movie, whilst appealing to the widest possible audience. Immensely talented composers such as Trevor Rabin, Mark Mancina, John Powell and many others, are, or have, been part of Clan Zimmer. Over the past decade Zimmer has successfully married the traditional approach of such composers as John Williams with the often purely 'electronic' cutting-edge composers such as Vangelis to create the perfect medium. Thus, Zimmer (and Media Ventures) output contains the best of both worlds. This has led to a steady stream of hugely successful scores that often combine both traditional and popular stylistics seamlessly. The Zimmer hallmark is diversity, appropriateness and an unflinching desire to serve the movie.

6) Bernard Herrmann *****

Despite being primarily known for his orchestral scores, Herrmann is very much the favourite composer of the fashionable – and rightly so. His larger-than-life scores to Hitchcock, most notably VERTIGO, brought the dramatic film score to prominence, and his work for Welles and his attachment to many classic movies of the 40s and 50s has ensured the immortality of Herrmann's output. Herrmann is the one famous for saying that 'although music is the cement that binds a film together, it should not be noticed, though neither should it merely duplicate the action.'

7) James Horner *****

James Horner has done little to break film-scoring convention, but no-one since Steiner has provided such a consistently high standard of film-scoring to such a diverse range of movies. Rather than a creator of music, Horner is a genius at manipulating musical forces, be they his own or another composer's. Horner's approach to scoring is so in tune with his movies, and his versatility so complete, that he easily adapts to changing musical trends whilst retaining the quintessence of the composer of dramatic film score.

8) Dimitri Tiomkin *****

One of the most celebrated Hollywood composers, Tiomkin forged a fine career in the 30s and 40s scoring innumerable classic movies. But it was in the 50s that Tiomkin rose to prominence, winning three Oscars in the process. His amazingly evocative musical narrative scores to such movies as HIGH NOON are quite unique in their ability to enhance mood. Outside of the movie-musical, no other scores come so close to being the perfect marriage of image and music as HIGH NOON and other Tiomkin scores of its ilk.

The four star film composers…..

9) Alex North ****

Innovative, perceptive and insightful are words that are often used to describe the composer of a successful film score, but rarely are these words more fitting than in the case of Alex North. His A STREETCAR NAMED DESIRE is recognized as the first genuine jazz score, and it still packs a punch today. Each North score is an intricately developed musical event, and this composer successfully transplanted his compositional abilities to the concert hall.

10) Danny Elfman ****

Elfman has been a mainstay of 90s cinema and is renowned for his work with Tim Burton. But there is infinitely more to this composer than fantasy music. Elfman has proven, when given the opportunity, to be a remarkably skilled composer of all musical forms. This is one composer with a very bright future.

11) Mikloz Rozsa ****

Rozsa is perhaps the film composer who has also found most success away from the film score in the concert hall, but his work in movies is also of the highest quality. Beginning in England, Rozsa followed Korda to Hollywood in 1940 and remained to create great film scores into the 80s. Rozsa was particularly adept at scoring film noir, and was always intent on scoring the movie's psychological undercurrent rather than merely reinforcing the obvious. Though he later concentrated on scoring full-blooded epics, with unparalleled success, in later years he returned to his more intimate style that so perfectly captured the mood of those 40s classics.

12) Ennio Morricone ****

Morricone's film scoring has elevated some otherwise mundane 'spaghetti' westerns to unforgettable movie experiences. Though his music often verges on the pretentious, Morricone's involvement with a movie is always welcome. Sometimes Morricone strains to be different, and often succeeds in bringing his movies to life like no other composer. Thus, Morricone has gained respect from within the music world as well as the world of film, and his prolific output and willingness to work in Europe and Hollywood continues to keep this composer very much in vogue.

13) Elmer Bernstein ****

Bernstein's musical output is renowned for its boldness, but there is plenty of tenderness there too, as demonstrated by his intimate and moving work on TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD. But it is as the composer of such famous themes as THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN and THE GREAT ESCAPE that Bernstein is best remembered. A versatile composer equally at home with jazz and symphonic stylings, Bernstein's presence in cinema since the early 70s has been surprisingly low-key.

14) John Barry ****

Barry began as a composer and arranger of jazz and popular music, and this grounding in popular stylistics put him in good stead for the series of Bond movies that were to make his name. Since scoring FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE, Barry has proved himself a fine composer of all styles of music, and has provided many notable film scores in a diverse range of genres. Since his brilliant DANCES WITH WOLVES however, one has not seen enough of this inspirational composer.

15) Maurice Jarre ****

Jarre's work includes some of the best loved film scores – DR ZHIVAGO and LAWRENCE OF ARABIA will live forever in popular culture. Jarre's is a particularly distinctive style, and usually one can quickly recognize a score as being Jarre, and this may have worked against the composer on occasion, but such is the inspirational brilliance of some of his work, any stylistic limitations can be forgiven. Apart from his famous scores, he has done much great work – his theme to IS PARIS BURNING? is simply magical, and his work on RYAN'S DAUGHTER is incredibly romantic, and the incorporation of Beethoven is joy to behold.

16) Erich Wolfgang Korngold ****

A relatively small body of work, but such quality. Who can forget his stirring theme to THE SEA HAWK, or his magnificent work on any other Errol Flynn swashbuckler? But it was his poignant work on THE PRIVATE LIVES OF ELIZABETH AND ESSEX (again with Flynn) that the true depth of Korngold's talent becomes obvious.

17) Franz Waxman ****

A catalogue of classic scores, including BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN, SUNSET BOULEVARD and A PLACE IN THE SUN, distinguish the career of yet another composer who fled Nazi Germany.

The three star film composers…..

18) Roy Webb ***

19) Henry Mancini ***

DAYS OF WINE AND ROSES, BREAKFAST AT TIFFANY'S, THE PINK PANTHER – need I go on? But it wasn't all jazz – check out LIFEFORCE.

20) Lalo Schifrin ***

BULLITT, DIRTY HARRY and now MISSION IMPOSSIBLE, Schifrin has done some classic stuff. Great to hear him reprise his early 70s funky sound in 1997's RUSH HOUR.

21) Benjamin Frankel ***

22) James Newton Howard ***

23) William Alwyn ***

24) Elliot Goldenthal ***

25) Leonard Rosenman ***

26) Basil Poledouris ***

27) Carter Burwell ***

28) Marc Shaiman ***

29) Howard Shore ***

30) Alan Silvestri ***

31) Vangelis ***

32) Victor Young ***

33) Mark Isham ***

34) David Raksin ***

35) Malcolm Arnold ***

36) Herbert Stothart ***

37) Frank Skinner ***

38) Bronislau Kaper ***

39) Patrick Doyle ***

40) Leigh Harline ***

41) Clifton Parker ***

42) Adolph Deutsch ***

43) Mischa Spoliansky ***

There are many, many other film composers who have contributed high quality work to cinema, but the above represents the cream of the film scoring fraternity, in my opinion.

"PeterK is entitled to his opinion, but does he really believe that all scores that emanate from Media Ventures are somehow inferior?"

You said - "Please point out to me (from any thread) where I've said MV scores are inferior."

Perhaps I misinterpreted your earlier comment at this thread, MV is known for turning the scoring process into a manufacturing plant line....

You said - "You "somehow" like to paint me and my words in a negative light every time you re-appear on these boards. Why? Do you not like me?"

Though I cannot admit to worshipping the keyboard on which you type, I bear you no ill-will.....far from it.

No, liking me is not quite the equivalent of worshipping the keyboard I use. Far from it.

This whole "go after the admin guy" mentality is ridiculous, but psychologically understandable. I long for the day when people forget about whose board it is, bleh blah blah. It doesn't matter!

MV is known for turning the scoring process into a manufacturing plant line.... - PeterK March 9 2001

....the common goal among today's working film composers without so many words: The paycheck matters most.... - PeterK December 5 2000

....it (the temp track) has FACTUALLY obliterated opportunities for new composers to put their unique mark on a film score. - PeterK December 5 2000

What is "appropriate" for the film (today) has been chosen by the directors and editors of the world long before composer is given pencil and paper (or keyboard and samples, in Zimmer et al's case). It's unfortunate, but it's reality. - PeterK December 5 2000

It is gratifying to learn you're not disenchanted with modern film-scoring practice.

You said - "No, liking me is not quite the equivalent of worshipping the keyboard I use. Far from it."

I see you've caught my drift.

You go on to say - "This whole "go after the admin guy" mentality is ridiculous...."

Any responses I have made to the opinions you have expressed at this Message Board have been based on what you have said, not who you are. If anything, mainly out of respect for your 'fish chip' status, I have tended to be more cautious and respectful when responding to your postings, than I would otherwise have been.

Finally, you said - "I like a lot of Media Ventures scores, some I consider far better than lots of others."

He also stated that he´d love to do some big orchestral stuff. I.e. without the typical use of MV synths. Patrick Doyle, who was also at the seminar, happens to be a good friend of John Powell. He believes Powell to be one of the most gifted British filmcomposers.

BTW: Patrick Doyle is the funniest composer out there. He made me laugh all the time. He would even tease John Powell during the seminar.

But, mix and match simple industry observations with what you think are my personal tastes all you like.

Hans Zimmer has stated Media Ventures is a factory, just as I did, in an article sent through the AP wire yesterday. Does this mean he doesn't like his own stuff? No. The two issues aren't related.

The article ends with this quote:

You said - "I don't know what the point is with all those quotes of mine. Those seem to be simple observations of the "modern film scoring techniques"...."

It is gratifying to learn you're not disenchanted with modern film-scoring practice.