A discussion with a friend,who had just purchased the re-recording of MARNIE, and what did I think of it, and the recent crop of these worthy but, flawed? recordings. My response is one of general disatisfaction with the interpretation of the music, by the conductors of them. Primarily because it does a diservice to the composer whose work they have been entrusted with. It is not, as I see it, the business of the conductor to impose his interpretation on the music, but to present it as the composer intended it to be.

Two recordings in particular, are really quite dreadful. James Sedares's EL-CID (my idol Miklos Rozsa would surely not have approved!) and Joel Mcneely's VERTIGO. I guess my point is. That someone who is just discovering the wonderful world of film music, may buy these re-recordings in the belief that they are a faithful rendition of the score. Which in many cases, they are not.

Does it matter? what do YOU think.
Jonathan <HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

AMEN TO THAT!
I have a German Import of the orig. score to "The Great Escape", and it's GREAT! Well, a while back, The Royal Scottish Crapola Orch. put out a remake, and I figured I'd get it, as it seemed to be an expanded version from the original. So, I bought it, and WOW....any resemblance to the original score is "purely coincidental". I thought it sounded like they were doing a completely different score. It was, IMHO, an abomination. Needless to say, so I'll say it....I'll NEVER take a chance on a RSCO remake EVER again.

IMHO, as far as remakes go....MARCO POLO rules the roost.
Has anybody here ever gotten a GOOD remake from the RSCO???
I'm curious...was, by any chance, that remake of "Marnie" done by the RSCO??? Mmmmmmmmm???

NP:A HISTORY OF HORROR...The Bride of Frankenstein-1935...F.Waxman

Ron S.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jonathan axworthy:
Two recordings in particular, are really quite dreadful. James Sedares's EL-CID (my idol Miklos Rozsa would surely not have approved!) and Joel Mcneely's VERTIGO. I guess my point is. That someone who is just discovering the wonderful world of film music, may buy these re-recordings in the belief that they are a faithful rendition of the score. Which in many cases, they are not.

---

Oh my! First I have to defend Sedares's El Cid: I think this is an excellent recording. Far from "dreadful", I actually prefer it to the Rozsa-conducted re-recording (the original tracks are unavailable as far as I know). It benefits from superior sonics and better orchestral balance.

There are MANY superb re-recordings. Take, for example (this is far from a complete list):
- Magnificent Seven (Sedares again)
- Ivanhoe (Intrada)
- Julius Ceaser (Intrada)
- Jason and the Argonauts (Intrada)
- anything by Charles Gerhardt

Let's save "deadful" for the recordings that deserve it, like the cheap Silva compilations with the "City of Prague Orchestra".

quote:

---

Originally posted by enigmaron:
an abomination. Needless to say, so I'll say it....I'll NEVER take a chance on a RSCO remake EVER again.

IMHO, as far as remakes go....MARCO POLO rules the roost.
Has anybody here ever gotten a GOOD remake from the RSCO???
I'm curious...was, by any chance, that remake of "Marnie" done by the RSCO??? Mmmmmmmmm???

---

That's too bad. The RSNO is an excellent orchestra. They've done lots of classical recordings for Naxos/Marco Polo.

Personally, I find the need to judge re-recordings on a case by case basis, mostly applying what I feel is important as a listener. I also react to the genuine intent behind a re-recording.

Around 1994-1995, I had an overwhelming disgust for re-recordings. No more Gerhardt-class re-recordings were being made, although a certain label or two would unceasingly release lackluster packages from their "stock" library of re-recordings and call it something like "The Music from Harrison Ford Films," only to release another album months later with the same recordings, this time called "The Film Music of Steven Spielberg." The recording quality may have been sufficient, but the performances caused me to wince, and I felt any good intent behind the recordings weren't aimed at people who really appreciated movie music.

Since then, Marco Polo has entered second and third gear, they must be up to fourth by now, and have released re-recorded labors of love. Same with Monstrous Movie Music. Intrada then introduced its EXCELLENT Excalibur Collection of re-recordings. Attention has been paid details in reconstruction, from orchestration to the proximity of mic placement, to re-create as close as possible the original score. I've never had any dissatisfaction with these scores. I'm really looking forward to SON OF KONG next month, as the movie really had nothing going for it, except for Steiner's score and a few special effects.

Then there are re-recordings of various film themes, treated as if they were classical pieces. If done right, these are enjoyable. I am fond of "Cinema Serenade, Volume 2" especially, and Varese releases like "Movie Memories." Nothing close to what was actually heard in the film; what's left are beautiful arrangements and performances we've not heard before, although we're quite familiar with the themes. Like I said, I like it, if done right. There are obvious differences in some of these. I will never buy a album recorded with the "American Orchestra."

I have a question for you Jonathan. There are original scores released of both Vertigo and El Cid (as of 3/20/01 in the USA), despite sound quality not being up to year 2000 standard. Would you take original recordings over any re-recording, even with technical limitations on recording quality?

For me, it depends. I was thrilled to learn Rhino would be releasing the original King Kong elements, however, with Marco Polo's excellent re-recording available, I rarely find myself listening to the original from 1933.

Peter

As for conductors (or arrangers) and their interpretations of film music, I do feel it is necessary, especially if film music is going to jump the fence and become as accepted a "listening music" as classical music. But again, these need to be done with the right perspective in mind. There have been lots of classical pieces re-recorded with original composer's intent left intact, simply because the label was going after excellent technique in recording and performance. It's the interpretational recordings that have kept the classical world fresh, in my opinion, even though there are some pretty horrid "interpretations" and recordings in this genre as well.

If the intent is to re-create a score, there should be absolutely no licence to mess with the composer's intent.

If the intent is to can a bunch of themes for repurpose later on, the recordings will be dreadful to begin with.

I have no problem with McNeely and The RSNO recordings of Herrmann's scores. I think they do an excellent job, sure there may be some slight differences but the overall performance is close enough in tempo. Also McNeely's performance of Vertigo is supposed to be closer to what Herrmann wanted as opposed to the performance conducted by Muir Mathieson for the actual film. However they dropped the ball in my opinion, having Debney do the Seventh Voyage of Sinbad. The tempo is too slow or too fast at times. I wish McNeely would have done that one. I may end up buying The Three Worlds of Gulliver because the sound on the original recording I have is too soft, compared to Cloud Nines Mysterious Island. I would hope they would consider that one in the near future because the original is missing the Bee sequence and a few other cues. I also found Varese's Superman to be a major letdown as well and quickley sold mine when Rhino's came out. The tempo and orchestration while from Williams own sketches may be close, the performances are terrible IMHO.

Intrada's Jason and The Argonauts is very well done album as well as Marco Polo's King Kong. I'm looking forward to Son of Kong and Game with great anticipation. Silva nailed it with Raise The Titanic. While the Gerdhardt recordings gave us unreleased music I found those to lack the punch of Williams original recordings.

McNeely did do a terrible job with the Jaws re-recording. The tempo and orchestration is way off in my opinion. It lacks the harshness and brutal feeling Williams gave us.

While I'm grateful to those who do try to give us re-recordings, I prefer to stick to the composer's original because that was the way it was intended to be performed. I don't want to hear 10 different composers present their view on a score. I want the original if at all possible. It helps when a they stick to the original way the composer wanted his or her score presented than going off in their own direction.

I'm suprised the Bernstein/RSNO recordings received the response above because if I'm not mistaken Bernstein conducted them himself? Or was involved in some way.

I think another consideration is that other Labels like Intrada and Marco Polo take their time or have the time to do the score at a slower pace, while it seems Varese does not have that luxury.

As far as the topic is concerned, I have never been a big fan of re-recordings. I pretty much buy them only if they have material in them that I don't have yet and thus wish I had.

I think it is virtually impossible to get a re-recording that is absolutely idetntical in tempo and otherwise, to the original. Most of us listen to a given score and/or theme several times (if not hundreds of times). We thus get very used to the tempo and all the nuances of that particular interpretation, I mean, gheese, we can hum the darn thing almost perfectly. Who has not crinched and a changed tempo or a variation in the overall presentation of a re-recording. It's nothing new. Just look at the rock/pop world. Songs are always re-done. Most of us are used to the originals to the extend that we just don't like the remakes. Same goes with movies. It's a human condition.

Bottom line for me is this: If I don't have it, and it's available (re-recording or not) and I want it, I get it.

Man, it's cold in here....

Scott

great Mark, you just had to post a few seconds before I did and made my comment about not knowing most people on this thread seem rather idiotic. Hmmmm....

BTW, Williams re-records lots of his own themes and I always notice changes. Some are good, some ok and some I absolutly dread.

Scott

Re-recording is a difficult discipline, but some very good ones have been done: McNeely's covers of Herrmann (here comes Goldberg to punch me out, I know), Goldsmith's of North (that I've heard), Varujan Kojian's STAR WARS TRILOGY, John Scott's 1988 Screen Themes album for Varese, the impeccable Marco Polo releases, Varese's TOWERING INFERNO collection, Gerhardt's RETURN OF THE JEDI (I miss Gerhardt) and the frequently erratic Nic Raine's superlative RAISE THE TITANIC.

quote:

---

Originally posted by H Rocco:
Most people on this thread seem rather idiotic? Cue Rocco!

---

Oh dear. Misunderstanding...misunderstanding...misunderstanding.

What I was trying to say was: Since I said at my first post that I didnt know most of the people on this thread and that some of them were kinda new to this community I welcomed them to the board. However, Mark posted a few seconds before I did, so that mad my comment about the new arrivals kinda...well...mistaken or dumb. I did not want to imply that most people were idiotic.(Shacking head), really got to work on my communication skills.

Scott

NP: The sound of AIM

Does it matter? what do YOU think.
Jonathan <HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

AMEN TO THAT!
I have a German Import of the orig. score to "The Great Escape", and it's GREAT! Well, a while back, The Royal Scottish Crapola Orch. put out a remake, and I figured I'd get it, as it seemed to be an expanded version from the original. So, I bought it, and WOW....any resemblance to the original score is "purely coincidental". I thought it sounded like they were doing a completely different score. It was, IMHO, an abomination. Needless to say, so I'll say it....I'll NEVER take a chance on a RSCO remake EVER again.

IMHO, as far as remakes go....MARCO POLO rules the roost.
Has anybody here ever gotten a GOOD remake from the RSCO???
I'm curious...was, by any chance, that remake of "Marnie" done by the RSCO??? Mmmmmmmmm???

NP:A HISTORY OF HORROR...The Bride of Frankenstein-1935...F.Waxman

Ron S.

Perhaps it's because the orchestra really is'nt interested in the music they have been contracted to play. This would, in large part, account for the lack-lustre performance.

<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh my! First I have to defend Sedares's El Cid: I think this is an excellent recording. Far from "dreadful", I actually prefer it to the Rozsa-conducted re-recording (the original tracks are unavailable as far as I know). It benefits from superior sonics and better orchestral balance.

There are MANY superb re-recordings. Take, for example (this is far from a complete list):
- Magnificent Seven (Sedares again)
- Ivanhoe (Intrada)
- Julius Ceaser (Intrada)
- Jason and the Argonauts (Intrada)
- anything by Charles Gerhardt

Let's save "deadful" for the recordings that deserve it, like the cheap Silva compilations with the "City of Prague Orchestra".

EL-CID is just so slow and ponderous, lacking the vibrancy and spark of the original.

Personally, I find the need to judge re-recordings on a case by case basis, mostly applying what I feel is important as a listener. I also react to the genuine intent behind a re-recording.

Around 1994-1995, I had an overwhelming disgust for re-recordings. No more Gerhardt-class re-recordings were being made, although a certain label or two would unceasingly release lackluster packages from their "stock" library of re-recordings and call it something like "The Music from Harrison Ford Films," only to release another album months later with the same recordings, this time called "The Film Music of Steven Spielberg." The recording quality may have been sufficient, but the performances caused me to wince, and I felt any good intent behind the recordings weren't aimed at people who really appreciated movie music.

Since then, Marco Polo has entered second and third gear, they must be up to fourth by now, and have released re-recorded labors of love. Same with Monstrous Movie Music. Intrada then introduced its EXCELLENT Excalibur Collection of re-recordings. Attention has been paid details in reconstruction, from orchestration to the proximity of mic placement, to re-create as close as possible the original score. I've never had any dissatisfaction with these scores. I'm really looking forward to SON OF KONG next month, as the movie really had nothing going for it, except for Steiner's score and a few special effects.

Then there are re-recordings of various film themes, treated as if they were classical pieces. If done right, these are enjoyable. I am fond of "Cinema Serenade, Volume 2" especially, and Varese releases like "Movie Memories." Nothing close to what was actually heard in the film; what's left are beautiful arrangements and performances we've not heard before, although we're quite familiar with the themes. Like I said, I like it, if done right. There are obvious differences in some of these. I will never buy a album recorded with the "American Orchestra."

I have a question for you Jonathan. There are original scores released of both Vertigo and El Cid (as of 3/20/01 in the USA), despite sound quality not being up to year 2000 standard. Would you take original recordings over any re-recording, even with technical limitations on recording quality?

For me, it depends. I was thrilled to learn Rhino would be releasing the original King Kong elements, however, with Marco Polo's excellent re-recording available, I rarely find myself listening to the original from 1933.

Peter

I agree with you regarding the Marco Polo recordings Peter, but I have to say that the Gerhardt recordings on RCA, were/are very special, and a project like it, will probably never happen again.

As to your question. Original over a re-recording of a score? My answer is invariably yes, quite simply because despite the technical limitations. The orchestra's performance, and the composer's intimate knowledge of his own work, still comes through. The indefinable 'something' that is missing from any re-recording no matter well intentioned.
Jonathan

This is quite another matter. I can accept the composer's own interpretation of his work in a re-recording. And it his prerogative to make changes in his score if he feels it necessary to do so. I once asked Jerry Goldsmith why he always conducts his scores. His reply was that he wrote it, only he knows how it should be played.
Jonathan

Just to state my point of view again, I was harsh on the Nic Raine/ Silva re-recordings (though I don't doubt that his heart is in the right place), but I adore all the Gerhardt stuff, and Bruce Broughton did wonders with Miklos Rozsa. Jerry Goldsmith's CDs of Alex North music have been good to excellent, but a lot of it has to do with what we're used to: anything which differs from what we already know has a bit of an acid test ahead of it. Oh, and Marco Polo, that's right, that's a labour of love which really works, in my humble one.
Have to disagree with you about THE AGONY AND THE ECSTACY Graham. If you have the Cloud Nine CD. Play it first then the Goldsmith version. Nuff said!
jonathan

I have been very impressed with Marco Polo's recording of Franz Waxman's Objective Burma. I picked this up a couple of weeks ago and I've been extremely happy with it! The Moscow Symphony Orchestra gives a very crisp performance. I haven't heard trumpets tongue their notes this well since the National Philharmonic performed Night Crossing.

I've also been very pleased with the E.W. Korngold recordings that Varese did with Varujan Kojian conducting the Utah Symphony Orchestra back in the '80s.

Regarding the RSNO Varese recordings, I think the biggest complaint I notice from others is the "concert sound" (reverb) of the recordings. I don't mind it. *shrug*

I've been a little bit concerned with the RSNO, since my first impression of them was with the Patton/Tora disc. Overall, I think that it was done fairly well, but turn that first Tora! Tora! Tora! track up fairly loud and listen to wrong notes from that trombone player in the beginning... ick. It's a re-recording! The performance should be flawless! I'll pick up FSM's originals eventually.

I've been happy with the RSNO's Amazing Stories and the Back to the Future Trilogy recordings.

First, finally someone that didn't just bow down to Varese for their lame version of Marnie.

As is well known, I'm down on most re-records. I'm familiar with the music as it appears in the film, it's what I grew up with, and am not too keen on re-interpretations. I don't consider film music concert music, it has its own codes, structures, approaches, disciplines and sound, and I don't appreciate conductors trying to make it jump the fence into a world of concert music. Most classical fans are still snobbish on film music will always be so and so film music should be recorded with film people in mind and not with some agenda to 'give it class'.

The Hollywood studio orchestras contained some of the best musicians on the planet who became veterans at producing film cues. These orchestras under the composer/conductors created performances that modern orchestras & record companies just don't have the time, patience, quality, money, or spirit to match. Subsequently, most re-records are listless and often mis-noted too for inexplicable reasons.

Digital sound and better recording techniques do make up for the archival sound of acetates and tapes which have suffered deterioration over the years, but what good is having great sound when the performance is so lackluster.

People who choose not to make comparisons, think re-interpretations are valid and welcome, or like re-recordings just for the sound are just apologists. I agree with Mark O. above that it's better to have a lame re-record than no version at all, but because we are willing to pay for CDs based on that rationale means that shady seat-of-the-pants outfits like Silva can butcher scores and still get away with it.

There are exceptions to the basic trend however. There are re-recordings which speed or slow the tempi of the film performance and which are still great to listen to. There are rare versions where the re-recording actually surpasses the version on the film's soundtrack.

But these are all too rare. While Ford Thaxton has produced some great re-issues of original tapes, his work as producer of re-recordings at Silva Screen endlessly confirms he has a tin ear. When I called him on all the poor Silva versions, he called me crazy and defended Nic Raine's version of War of the Worlds and When Worlds Collide as surpassing the original performance. And he really believes that so I don't expect him to ever get it and come up with albums that will measure up. Varese re-recordings of Herrmann have been disappointing. I'm not going to beat up Rocco for thinking otherwise--there are a lot of people who think McNeely and the RSNO are great. I have admitted before that I'm rather picky and hard to please. The Intrada re-records have been passable. Only Monstrous Movie Music and Marco Polo have been consistent in producing good re-records and even there, not in every case.

Still, I have to continue to support the effort of re-records if just for the sake of film music preservation alone and with the hope that someday a conductor and orchestra will come along and treat this music with the philosophy and perfection say of what Toscanini did for Beethoven.

The intention on the part of companies that have made re-records is obviously good. There are a lot of companies that won't touch the stuff despite the higher sales that film music has compared to other classical recordings. So I'm glad there is both a market and producers willing to feed it. Still, one should remember that famous quote about good intentions and the road to hell.....especially if you work for Silva.

quote:

---

The orchestra's performance, and
the composer's intimate knowledge of his own work, still comes through. The indefinable 'something' that is missing from any re-recording no matter well intentioned.
Jonathan

---

I can see your point, to an extent.

I am all for re-recordings of film music.

Saying otherwise, to me, is saying that ONLY the very first performance of Handel's "Messiah" is the one and only way to have heard it. It seems ludicrous to me that music, while, yes, written for a certain set of images, is not worthy in any other format.
It'd be like saying U2 or whomever can ONLY perform their songs in a live setting the way they were recorded for album.

Jerry Goldsmith himself is on record as saying that he writes his film music as if he were writing it for the concert hall. This to me leaves the door open to other interpretations of film music.

The real obstacle here is the fact that people are so attuned to having heard the original recordings married to the film, or having only the OST-LP or CD presentation of the music. Yes, there are some rancid re-recordings out there, I have to admit.

Film music is descriptive, just like Liszt's or Richard Strauss' tone poems, or Hector Berlioz's "Symphonie fantastique." I would balk at the notion that these can ONLY be heard in one recording, or only heard live.

Music of any sort is ALWAYS open for re-interpretation. Especially film music, because a re-interpretation gives the music a chance to breathe apart from the stranglehold of image and exact timing.

well, that's probably not written in an entirely cohesive manner, but you get the gist.

Mark O: Jaws IS awful. But, when I see it in my Pile O' Williams, I have to whip it out...........and then take the CD out the collection to listen to "Quint's Death". It's a breakneak rendition of the piece, PLUS it adds something that I'm guessing was either in the original manuscript or a VERY Williams-esque 3-note high horn version of the Jaws theme (musical idiocy at play by me right there) thrown in by McNeely. Either way, it's the only reason to have this album. Anybody want to hear it?

Oh, the second thing. JJ's Burwell comp DOES rock. In a Carter Burwell kinda way.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott:
Most of you on this thread I have never really talked with...so I would like to say welcome as well.

As far as the topic is concerned, I have never been a big fan of re-recordings. I pretty much buy them only if they have material in them that I don't have yet and thus wish I had.

I think it is virtually impossible to get a re-recording that is absolutely idetntical in tempo and otherwise, to the original. Most of us listen to a given score and/or theme several times (if not hundreds of times). We thus get very used to the tempo and all the nuances of that particular interpretation, I mean, gheese, we can hum the darn thing almost perfectly. Who has not crinched and a changed tempo or a variation in the overall presentation of a re-recording. It's nothing new. Just look at the rock/pop world. Songs are always re-done. Most of us are used to the originals to the extend that we just don't like the remakes. Same goes with movies. It's a human condition.

Bottom line for me is this: If I don't have it, and it's available (re-recording or not) and I want it, I get it.

Man, it's cold in here....

Scott

NP: Bad dreams

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Scott, above said:

quote:

---

Most of us listen to a given score and/or theme several times (if not hundreds of times). We thus get very used to the tempo and all the nuances of that particular interpretation

---

NP:WHAT LIES BENEATH...A.Silvestri...my first listen...sounds GREAT!!!

I belive re-recordings to be a double edged sword,one that is supported by high hopes of being acknowledged as worthwhile venture but
at the expense of loosing some of the great nuances of a film scores.

A film score re-reading can never be the same to beigin with.

The different orchestra, conductor, composer all contribute to a newer sound and feel of the music. That is why it would never be the same.

I for one just love a s many variations and changes in a score as their can be.
To begin with, you already have the original and if its great its..great. But You CAN get tired of the same pice again and again. With re-recordings you always get a different taste and nuance that also brings OUT sections which are not always there.

Iam just as enamoured with Rhino's Superman 2cd set as well as Varese's Re-recording. Just compare the The Chase music for the train in both editions and feel the diffeence in tempos, and orchestration. They are remarkeable and enjoyable both.

I disagree that Varese Rendition of Jaws
" lacks the harshness and brutal feeling"-Mark Olivarez

This recording is anything but MORE harsh and brutal than its Original counterpart. thanks goes to modern sonics and McNeelys insightfull conducting. It is also more Percusive.

Again, this too is a different vriation. I got BOTH the origianl and Varese edition and just had blast listening and comparing each other..and they are both unique in my opinion.

On the subject of Varese re-recordings the Concert like atmospheric is more intentional as Robert Townsend wants it this way.

I just consider the VERTIGO and EL CID re-recordings one of the best ever to hit the stores.

For film music, the case is slightly (but only slightly) different. Here, we DO have a definitive version - the one that fits the film. Yet we do listen to this music apart from the film, so we obviously enjoy it as music. And as pure music, I think it is very similar to classical music, and should be very fitting for different interpretations.

That there are probably a lot of disappointing soundtrack re-recordings out there is I believe rather the result of the relative obscurity of film music and the lack of money for extensive practice sessions.

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott:
BTW, Williams re-records lots of his own themes and I always notice changes. Some are good, some ok and some I absolutly dread.

---

His "Here They Come! on the Star Wars Trilogy album doesn't come near the original recording, it just doesn't work when played so slow (and even Gerhardt's energetic recording can't match the impressive first recording), but the Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra on the Spielberg/Williams Collaboration is breathtaking.

Speaking of Williams, his more recent albums mixed by Shawn Murphy have a nice "concert hall" sound, but are so "foggy" (for lack of a better word) that you can hardly hear the music. Goldsmith's Botnick-mixed albums, on the other hand, which I have been praising, don't sound so much better on my new stereo system. One of the discs that have hugely improved is Basil Poledouris' Starship Troopers. That one sounds fantastic (thanks to clear sound with the correct amount of reverb).

quote:

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Originally posted by soundtrackman:
I'm one of the new guys, I guess, so hope you don't mind my two-cents.

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Your two cents are a worth a million. Welcome to the group.

Scott

quote:

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Originally posted by soundtrackman:
I'd have to say that, personally, I get used to a certain version of the music, often the version in the film, and anything else seems jarring to my ear. At first.

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Exactly - At first.

I have two of the Herrmann Phase 4 albums (how many are there, by the way?). They're great, but in most cases I don't have the original film recordings to compare them.

quote:

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Originally posted by soundtrackman:
one with a wonderful suite from "Jane Eyre" (I forget what else is on there - can't check at the moment)

---

There's also a Citizen Kane suite (half of which is in fact from Ambersons), excerpts from Devil and Daniel Webster, Snows of Kilimanjaro, Mysterious Island and Jason and the Argonauts. Great stuff, with fantastic sound quality - recorded in 1970/1975, but sounds better than many current film music recordings.

Another thought just occured to me: When we say film music has the "right" to be interpreted differently because of it's similarity to "classical" music, shouldn't we also accept movie remakes because of the similarity to plays? (Except of course that many remakes are crap)

Welcome to the board, 'man.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by soundtrackman:
[b]I'd have to say that, personally, I get used to a certain version of the music, often the version in the film, and anything else seems jarring to my ear. At first.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly - At first.

I have two of the Herrmann Phase 4 albums (how many are there, by the way?). They're great, but in most cases I don't have the original film recordings to compare them.

There are four, Marian.
THE MYSTERIOUS FILM WORLD OF BERNARD HERRMANN
Mysterious island
The Three Worlds of Gulliver
Jason and the Argonauts
THE FANTASY FILM WORLD OF BERNARD HERRMANN
Journey To The Centre Of The Earth
The Seventh Voyage Of Sinbad
The Day The Earth Stood Still
Fahrenheit 451
GREAT BRITISH FILM MUSIC
Richard The 111
Anna Karenina
Oliver Twist
An Ideal Husband
Escape Me Never
The 49th Paralell
Things To Come
MUSIC FROM GREAT FILM CLASSICS
Jane Eyre
The Snows Of Kilimanjaro
Citizen Kane
Daniel Webster

His own music is probably as close to the original as he intended it should be.

Other composer's work is less easy to judge
except for Walton's Richard the Third. This is cracking stuff! and Bliss's Things to Come. I recently acquired a CD of the score as recorded in 1935. Having been subjected to technical wizardry, it is quite superb. Does Herrmann do full justice to both these historically important scores. Undoubtedly yes.
Jonathan

quote:

---

Originally posted by Graham Watt:
Jonathan Ax, I haven't got the Goldsmith re-recording of The Agony And The Ecstasy, though I do have the Cloud Nine release. Did Jerry go wrong on this one, as you seem to imply? Was this with the Royal Scottish or the National in London? What went wrong in your opinion? As far as Jerry Goldsmith's recordings of North scores are concerned, I've only got 2001, Viva Zapata and A Streetcar Named Desire. Viva seems to suffer from that much-discussed "concert hall ambience", and Streetcar's jazz solos are a bit stilted, but on the whole I like what I've heard. Tell us more about The Agony!

As you probably know, Jerry and Alex were neighbours and life-long friends. The news of Alex's death was a great shock to Jerry, who incidently, had lost another dear friend, and mentor. My idol, Miklos Rozsa. But to try to answer your question. I am going to dare to suggest that Jerry was too close to the composer, and as a result, the work suffers in that perhaps, the interpretations are too reverential. Viginnia Woolf is beautifully done, and the challenge of 2001, is tackled with all the gusto you would expect, but Zapata is, for me, sluggish and lacks the vitality of the original recording. But AGONY is just that! As in Tiomkin's ROMAN EMPIRE, the first instrument you hear, is a very forceful statement on an organ. I say an organ, not a harmonium! The main theme is built on this statement, and propels the whole magnificent work along to it's conclusion, (by the way, the best recording I have of the score, is on a Record), and Jerry or the orchestra or both, totally mis-read the score. This is most powerful work, and needs vigour, pace and colour to convey the majesty and terror and splendour of the film.

Slow, dull, lifeless as if both he and the orchestra had become bored with the project, almost from the first down-beat!

I once asked him about SPARTACUS. His reply was that it would be a monumental task to undertake, but it will happen. Let it be a fitting tribute to master of his craft, as ALL re-recordings should be.
Jonathan

Oh, here's another good one: Rick Wentworth doing Midway (John Williams). I was reluctant to pick this up at first, because I'd never heard of Rick Wentworth, but to me it sounds like...John Williams at least. However, I have neither seen the film nor heard the original score, so I'm back to square one as regards "comparing" (which might not be a good idea to start with).

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Herrmann's attitude stems from two factors. The first is an incident: he was playing some of his film music to someone and suddenly the music became faster for no apparent reason (it was catching something in the film which wasn't there) and this someone asked why is it doing that? I think this embarrased Herrmann (no idea who the someone was, maybe someone Herrmann had respect for and was trying to impress). From then on, film music, in his eyes, had to be altered and smoothed out for public performance.

Second is his approach to music conducting which I explained in detail in the Classical Music section of the board under the topic heading B Herrmann as Classical Conductor.

The Phase-4 recordings are hit and miss. Slowing the tempi down works in some cases, doesn't in others. I think 3 Worlds comes out best. The 7th Voyage Skeletons put me to sleep. Jane Eyre is great but you can't compare it to the original tracks, the tempi are so different that the Phase-4 version becomes in effect different music entirely.