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      Goldsmith and Prokofiev?

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    Topic:   Goldsmith and Prokofiev?

     Jeron
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    Ok, I know I'm stretching here... but for the longest time, I've wondered about this. Everyone who has a copy, pull out your Dennis the Menace cd and cue up track 11, Hung Up. Then, listen to Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf. Tell me that Goldsmith's theme does not sound derivative (in some minoooot way) of Prokofiev's theme for the wolf! Yeah, yeah... there are "only so many notes." And I'm really not even mentioning this as a negative thing, it's just interesting. I like the reference, if that is indeed what it is. Or, I could be completely off... you be the judge!

    For convenience (as I always do when I make these comparitive posts), I have included an mp3 sample of what I'm referring to below. I've organized it into a back-to-back 1 minute suite. It's a very small file (376kb), so don't hesitate to listen!

    Click here.

    Cool, huh?
    Jeron

    PS- I feel really iffy about this claim I'm making. There is SOMETHING similar about these two pieces... And no, the similarity is deeper than the fact that they share a minor key.

    NP- The Edge (by that guy)...

    [Message edited by Jeron on 01-26-2001]

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    posted 01-25-2001 11:56 PM PT (US)     

     Probable
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    I would call that a similarity of theme rather than a plagiarism, myself

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    posted 01-26-2001 12:35 AM PT (US)     

     Nicolai P. Zwar
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    Goldsmith is a very versatile composer, and the composers that seem to have had the overall biggest impact on his own style were probably Stravinsky, Bartok, and Ravel. I don't own Dennis the Menace, but Goldsmith's most Prokofiev inspired score is probably The Final Conflict, where the influence is quite obvious. Great score without a doubt, I just wish the recording quality would be better... a good candidate for a Varese re-recording in my book.

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    posted 01-26-2001 12:44 AM PT (US)     

     SPQR
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    Indeed, the main title is an interpolation of both Peter's theme and the central melody from Prokofiev's "Simple Symphony". The Wolf's theme is most stridently vocalized on track 11. One can also hear reference to Stravinsky's "Firebird" in the first 10 seconds of track 7. All of which, I'm sure, is quite intentional.

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    posted 01-26-2001 04:12 AM PT (US)     

     Timmer
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    Check out the opening of Schumann's Carnival Op.9 for the title theme of The First Great Train Robbery, Copland's Billy The Kid for The Wild Rovers and a wicked similarity between Bach's Sicilienne in G Minor and The Last Run theme, Richard Strauss's Der Rosenkavalier has some remarkable similarities to The Boys From Brazil, overwhelmingly strong influences of Ravel and Debussy in both Secret Of Nimh and Legend, and the obvious influence of Stravinsky in cassanda Crossing, Outland and of coarse The Omen! Even John Barry's OHMSS seems to be a basis for the 'Rambo' theme (as Daniel 2 has pointed out elsewhere).

    This is of coarse nothing more than nitpicking, I like Goldsmith's and (a far more obvious thief...but lets not get into that) Horner's music. Good music is good music, that's all that matters.

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    posted 01-26-2001 04:37 AM PT (US)     

     Wedge
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    Goldsmith HAS borrowed from Prokofiev, but rarely, and this is not one of them. The themes are similar in that they are whimsical ... not much else.

    If you want a score that rips off "Peter and the Wolf" try Horner's "Land Before Time."

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    posted 01-26-2001 05:31 AM PT (US)     

     Wedge
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    Whoops! My bad. I thought you meant the main theme! I just listened to the mp3. I would call this a direct influence, yes. A minor, very short one, but there nonetheless.

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    posted 01-26-2001 05:33 AM PT (US)     

     Tim_P
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    I'm about 90% certain that the similarity between the themes was completely intentional on Goldsmith's part. For much of the movie Christopher Lloyd's character is very much the "big bad wolf" in the neighborhood- always looming around. I don't think Goldsmith was running low on creativity and decided to swipe it- but rather use it in a very over-the-top cartoony way to point out that Lloyd's character is the REAL "menace" in the film.

    The theme I find more interesting in that film, though, is the main Dennis the Menace theme. It's basically just a descending scale with a few small modifications. There's no other composer in the business who could pull off something as simple as that so well!

    Tim

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    posted 01-26-2001 06:49 AM PT (US)     

     Jeron
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    A mixed set of responses! Let me begin by saying, not in my life, could I ever accuse JG of plagarism. Everyone here knows I love the guy too much. I just found the similarities to be cool, albeit a little far fetched.

    Jeron

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    posted 01-26-2001 08:19 AM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    Surprised nobody mentioned Goldsmith's most overt "steal" from Prokofiev -- a rather playful nod to "Peter And the Wolf" early into THE SECRET OF NIMH -- even at the age of 14, I recognized that one. The 'chanter is correct that NIMH owes far more to Debussy, though.

    Although fundamentally, it remains a GOLDSMITH score.

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    posted 01-26-2001 10:28 AM PT (US)     

     Erik Woods
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    <b>The Final Conflict, where the influence is quite obvious. Great score without a doubt, I just wish the recording quality would be better... a good candidate for a Varese re-recording in my book.</b>

    Whoa, THE FINAL CONFLICT is one of the best recordings I've heard. That and John Williams' THE FURY are fantastic recordings which IMHO sound a lot better then most of Goldsmith's recordings of today. For example, HOLLOW MAN and THE HAUNTING have a very echoy sound, which is mono sounding then anything else. I personally prefer a closely miked recording then a "concert" recording. That's why I consider some of the late 1970's and early 1980's recordings to be some of the best recorded scores ever.

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    posted 01-26-2001 10:28 AM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    Oh man, I can't agree with ya there ... I heard the LP first and wrote off the rather muddy sound quality to the pressing, but the CD was hardly an improvement, to my ear. I couldn't even understand the lyrics in the main title until I heard Roy Budd's majestic rerecording of it in 1988.

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    posted 01-26-2001 12:13 PM PT (US)     

     Marian Schedenig
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    The Final Conflict is one of the worst-sounding CDs I know. Hollow Man is one of the best (at least when limiting it to film scores).

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    posted 01-26-2001 01:33 PM PT (US)     

     Erik Woods
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    What makes HOLLOW MAN sound so good? It's sounds like it was recorded across the street from the recording stage and the mix is awful. Again mono sounding. You can bearly distiguish what instruments are playing what when the score gets into the action cues. But then again the score wasn't that great to begin with.

    And as for THE FINAL CONFLICT... I don't know what CD you guys are listening to, but damn is it a kick ass recording. It's got a full sound and the chorus, sorry guys, is really recorded well. Then when the lower brass instruments kick in... WOW!!! You can really feel the blasts as if you were standing right there on the conductors podium. I love the score and the recording. MHO of course!

    Erik

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    posted 01-26-2001 03:48 PM PT (US)     

     Marian Schedenig
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    On Hollow Man, I can heary EVERYTHING, every instrument group. On Final Conflict, I have problems even hearing the choir if I don't turn up the volume unusually high. In fact, when I first listened to the album, I was very disappointed, because I didn't HEAR the great stuff in it. Now it's one of my top favourite scores (but I also like Hollow Man very much).

    NP: Engulfed Cathedral (Claude Debussy)

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    posted 01-26-2001 04:30 PM PT (US)     

     JJH
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    there's not a thing wrong with the Hollow Man recording.

    a hopelessly underrated score, which was rather well represented on the CD.

    (the iso on the DVD does much better at that, though -- natch)

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    posted 01-26-2001 07:48 PM PT (US)     

     Aaron Collins
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    I really don't buy the similarities between these two scores. John hit it on the dot! They are both whimsical and fun, that's it.

    We look too far into these things when analyzing scores. People need to realize that writing something totally original is near to impossible. If two themes sound similar, then so be it. We can all go through a piece and pick out similarities to another work.

    Nevertheless Jeron, for being a non-musician you have a very keen ear! Keep up the good work!

    Aaron

    NP: Rage and Rememberance- Chaconne

    [Message edited by Aaron Collins on 01-26-2001]

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    posted 01-26-2001 10:24 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    well, at least I'm not the only one who doesn't think that highly of the FINAL CONFLICT album sound (although the SCORE is WONDERFUL, of course!)

    HOLLOW MAN, to me, is one of the best-sounding orchestral albums I've ever heard. I run hot and cold on the score itself; perhaps as Jeff Bond suggested at a TOTAL RECALL thread, it's simply one that, like TOTAL RECALL, simply must grow on one.

    Still, different people have different kinds of ears ... as one of his fellow Monty Pythonites said of John Cleese, "he doesn't even understand the point of STEREO!"

    NP: TOTAL RECALL DELUXE as it happens!

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    posted 01-26-2001 11:49 PM PT (US)     

     Timmer
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    The sound quality on Final Conflict is totally 'Brad Pitt'!....shame, this is probably my 2nd favourite Goldsmith score of all!

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    posted 01-27-2001 06:30 AM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    "totally Brad Pitt" ... took me a moment to get that!

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    posted 01-27-2001 09:18 AM PT (US)     

     DANIEL2
    unregistered  


    Erik Woods

    In my opinion, the album release of THE FINAL CONFLICT suffers from particularly poor sound quality, though such is the magnificence of Goldsmith’s composition, the CD is still well worth having. That said, the poor sound quality of the Varese album has less to do with the acoustics of the recording chamber, and is primarily the result of the transferral of the material from its original source.

    I would agree that the placement of the orchestral forces and the choir appears to be well-judged, but the quality of the reproduction leaves an awful lot to be desired, it sounds as though the album has been recorded directly off of a poorly tuned television, with frequent distortion and fading and a general loss of instrumental clarity and detail.

    I am not necessarily criticising the engineers involved in the creation of the Varese album, because they probably did the best they could with the existing recordings and technology available….indeed, it would appear that the only possible way an album that does full justice to Goldsmith’s wonderful score could be produced, would be for the score to be re-performed, but one feels that perhaps a certain quality that made the score so compelling in the first place may be missing from a new performance. I guess we’ll just have to be satisfied with the existing album.

    Though I have often criticized the hollow-sounding acoustics of many of Goldsmith’s ‘90s albums (often, it’s almost as though the music has been recorded in a huge and draughty aircraft hangar, and sometimes the quality of the recording is a little dry, such as with BASIC INSTINCT), I believe the acoustics, depth of recording and sound quality of his albums since, and including THE HAUNTING, have represented a marked improvement.

    Having said that, of all of Goldsmith’s albums, nothing can beat THE RUSSIA HOUSE and UNDER FIRE for clarity and depth, two remarkably successful and often intimate compositions justly receiving full and quality album representations.

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    posted 01-27-2001 09:24 AM PT (US)     

     Nicolai P. Zwar
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    I don't know what or how some of you guys usually listen to and what kind of playback equipment you use, but there is no question here: Marian and H Rocco hit the nail on its head: Hollow Man[]/b] boasts a top of the line engineered original soundtrack recording; the sound is crisp, clear, and dimensional. [b]The Final Conflict, on the other hand, is a marvelous score, no doubt about that, but the recording itself is one of the worst of its time period. Muddy, murky, and unflatering recording. There are Decca and Deutsche Grammophon stereo recordings from the early 1950s(!) with way better sound. I own the original The Final Conflict LP and picked up the CD in hope of some sound improvement... too bad it didn't happen.

    [Message edited by Nicolai P. Zwar on 01-27-2001]

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    posted 01-27-2001 01:14 PM PT (US)     

     Nicolai P. Zwar
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    quote:
    Originally posted by DANIEL2:
    In my opinion, the album release of THE FINAL CONFLICT suffers from particularly poor sound quality, though such is the magnificence of Goldsmith’s composition, the CD is still well worth having. That said, the poor sound quality of the Varese album has less to do with the acoustics of the recording chamber, and is primarily the result of the transferral of the material from its original source.

    I would agree that the placement of the orchestral forces and the choir appears to be well-judged, but the quality of the reproduction leaves an awful lot to be desired, it sounds as though the album has been recorded directly off of a poorly tuned television, with frequent distortion and fading and a general loss of instrumental clarity and detail.



    AAAAAHHHHHHHH! I agree, I agree, I agee.... with Daniel2, with Daniel2, with Daniel2! Perhaps just this once, okay, and perhaps just about this single issue, but what is this world coming to?

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    posted 01-27-2001 01:21 PM PT (US)     

     Scott
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    Oh gosh, here we go again...


    scott

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    posted 01-28-2001 12:32 AM PT (US)     

     Aaron Collins
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    Oh gosh, here we go again!!!

    Aaron

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    posted 01-28-2001 03:32 PM PT (US)     

     Jeron
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    I've got a whale! Cchhhh! Come on guys... let this thread die in peace.

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    posted 01-28-2001 03:48 PM PT (US)     

     Aaron Collins
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    Chhhh! HAHAHA

    Jeron, you are a goof!

    Aaron

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    posted 01-28-2001 04:02 PM PT (US)     
     

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