Listening to it again, I realized that right at the recording sessions Fielding was changing notes, moving things around, having instruments come in earlier or later than originally planned, riding his orchestra to play things correctly.

And this posed two questions: 1) Given these last second alterations, just how accurate is the existing sheet music compared to the cues as recorded? And 2) Given the orchestra's penchant for getting things off, how many recorded cues are off from the composer's original intentions?

Imagine listening to a cue all your life one way and going to re-record it and discover that the note on the page is different. Did the composer change it or did a player play the wrong note and nobody catch it?

"What note is this?"

Bruckner is said to have replied:
"Any note you want."

I tend to look at things like that, and when reading this about Fielding, assume that it is just part of the scoring process.

It is inevitable that a composer would make some mistakes in composition.
I mean, timing the music you write to the picture has got to be incredibly difficult, with all the time signatures, beats per measure, etc.

I think the basic essence of the music from the composer is what counts, not the exact note written on such and such day.

very interesting.

Film music can be flexible and open to interpretation.

Look at Herrmann's suite of Jane Eyre for Phase 4 or Bernstein's stereo re-recording of The 10 Commandments for Dot/Paramount/MCA (depending on which version you have)--- these are so far off from their originals it's wrong to call them by the same name and yet these interpretations still work on their own as music.

Workable examples of interpreted film music don't convince me, however, to accept this as a common substitute for closer-to-the-original-film-soundtrack versions.

Bruckner might say what the hell, Herrmann would too, but I don't. As rigid and perfectionist a take as it is, I want what I hear when I watch a movie preserved as closely to that form as possible. What happened at the Fielding sessions indicates there's another layer of difficulty to achieving this end.

Thankfully, all the present-day scores will be able to be preserved in their soundtrack performances with crystal sound quality, but it's too late for most of the scores of the past.

I wish that I could finally let this obsession go, stop posting about it, go with the flow, be Buddhist and accept what we get without troubling the placid surface of my inner waters. But no, I'm a film music fascist and I want the train cues to run on time!

OK, better calm down, take my medicine, sit back and play something to relax to. Ah, that's better. Here, try this, Bond Back in Action.

I have read numerous times that Fielding was a perfectionist, and worked for several works(at least that is what his orchestrator Lennie Niehaus said) on the finale of The Mechanic IIRC.

I like the special about filmusic, that AMC ran a few years ago called "The Hollywood Sound" which inserted clips from Alan Silvestri scoring Richie Rich.
They were shown recording a cue that underscored a fly buzzing around a kitchen.
Silvestri recorded it, the director wanted more of a "splat" when the insect was crushed...so Silvestri notated the score, and assistant called out the changes to the orchestra, and the cue was done.

What was fascinating is how efficient the crew worked, and how much focus was put onto a minute long scene, which was certainly a throwaway....wonder how much focus is put onto big sequences? Sounds like a nightmare to me...

NowPlaying: They Died with Their Boots On(Steiner)

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LOL, JJ. Although in Bruckner's case, it might as well have been because he himself and "friends" of him always kept revising his works...

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indeed. The man was without a spine.

I also remember seeing a film music documentary a few years back that included Alan Silvestri tweaking his RICHIE RICH score right onstage, at the director's bequest. I witnessed Alf Clausen doing the same thing at a SIMPSONS scoring session.

I've heard enough of Ifukube's alternate take versions to notice that his final ones are punched up in different parts of the orchestra. As late as GODZILLA VS. DESTROYER, he was recording alternate versions, e.g. the first appearance of the Oxygen Destroyer theme -- he originally scored it with fluttering harp background, but during the playback, so many younger folk around him declared it sounding "too old-fashioned," he decided to drop the harp.

The only composer who I'll bet DOESN'T tweak onstage is John Barry, for reasons varying from temperament to lack of NEED to tweak: his approach has become so unvarying that he already knows precisely what he's going to hear before he records a note, I'd bet.

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Originally posted by H Rocco:
The only composer who I'll bet DOESN'T tweak onstage is John Barry, for reasons varying from temperament to lack of NEED to tweak: his approach has become so unvarying that he already knows precisely what he's going to hear before he records a note, I'd bet.

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NP : Schlafes Bruder - Hubert Von Goisern (Marian, this is damn good stuff )

someone at Filmtracks just posted that Silva screen was releasing a 4CD box set of Barry scores:

1. The Last Valley
2. Lion in Winter
3. Robin and Marian

and an extended suite from Mary Queen of Scots.

all complete scores, due out April.

not sure what the 4th CD is.

I hope this is true.

I hear you and sometimes I feel the same way, but (you knew one was coming of course) most of the musicians I have talked to, especially those who play live, don’t have any desire to repeat another musician’s performance exactly.

Maybe they are just being contrary, (a position I am sure that you can appreciate even if you don’t agree with their decision) but they want the music to represent their skill and artistic style as well as the intent of the original recording. If the composers themselves don’t care (ala Herrmann) why should those who re-record?

Those recordings (the originals I mean) represent a snapshot in time that can NEVER be recovered. Even if you have the original recordings, all you are hearing is a recording of a performance, not the performance itself, the memory of an event, not the event itself.

As I've said endlessly, I think film music is another animal with different requirements than what D2 calls stand alone music. But as last second changes indicate, it's tough to duplicate film music--the score page or the cue as recorded leaves room for doubts.

I think I could take the mis-noting, the tempo changes, the differences in recording and mix, all of it, if the finished results still roused me as music. But they don't often. The spirit is lacking too. OK, it could be that I'm finicky, I'll admit that. That the pea under the bed that keeps me up is just fine for someone else. But if things were made to my standards, I'd bet that everyone else would like the re-records a lot better than they already do.

X-MEN.

'nuff said.

Basically, after Kamen wrote (and recorded most of) his score to X-MEN, it was almost completely rewritten over a weekend at the behest of the producers. It was a mess.

However, in terms of "small" changes, it's very common for composers to change notes and orchestration at the sessions - I've seen it many times, from Michael Kamen to Elmer Bernstein sessions.

Now, this is not to say every rerecording is better than the original. That would be silly. On the downside, I wish we had more time to record things. That is one thing big Hollywood film scores always had, a lot of studio time to get things right and perfect the sound. We at Marco Polo actually take more time to rerecord things than most record companies. An average CD will take 5 or 6 days at six hours a day. Bill Stromberg and I often make changes right on the session if there is something we don't like or thing is not correct.

When we did Herrmann's FIVE FINGERS, we had Herrmann's original full score, but had to have copyists prepare new parts. Well, there were literally hundreds of errors that Herrmann made (wrong notes, wrong rhythms, etc.) and Bill and I tried to go through the entire score and correct these before the copyists got them, but things came up during the recording we had to fix on the spot. This is not to downgrade Herrmann in any way as all composers make these kind of mistakes (typos type mistakes, if you know what I mean). When these scores were originally copied and played, they had a team of proofreaders that would often call up the orchestrator or composer to ask if this or that was correct and then only correct the parts. It seems to be an unwritten law that the scores were never corrected! At Warners, the scores would be proofed to the sketches. These full scores, when a note or something was questioned, a tiny check mark was put next to the offending note and then fixed in the parts, if needed. Since these were often done in light blue pencil, once the scores are photocopied, there goes the check!
As you can see, this unpublished music is much more entangled to perform than a published piece that have parts and problems all ready ironed out. It is truly like performing a brand new piece of music with all the attendant problems dealing with that.

I'm torn over the music vs accuracy and composer over the film cue issue. Dave Schecter over at Monstrous Movie Music puts together cues from all over the place: 12 bars here, skip 2 repeat bars, 6 bars from a version of the cue from another film, etc... The results aren't exact to the film, but they work musically, and they're performed well. Dave also includes alternate versions of things at the tail end of his CDs and explains in agonizing detail just how his versions of the cues were assembled. It seems to work well enough for me.

I can see the logic in weakening sting cues and certain accents. I can see restoring bars from cues that were shortened--more by the composer, though having the alternate film version would be nice too.

None of you seem mean-spirited, even Silva is trying their best--it's just very difficult to successfully do what you are doing.

And it appears that even the composers (I loved that--Bernard, call me and I'll explain it) aren't always too helpful about keeping things accurately. How many racing to meet a deadline think, I'll change it at the session, and keep writing.

Have you guys ever experimented with conducting the cue as it is in the film and conducting with a film clip and a click track as music would be recorded for a regular film scoring session?

I had to laugh when I read your post. That is certainly an issue that we have discussed here quite often. It goes a little like this:

An expanded (usually to much hoopla and anticipation) CD comes out, we listen, we say: "But Wait! The 15 second cue when he used the toilet is missing! That was the BEST cue in the whole score"

Seriously, you can't please everyone and I think your recordings do as good a job as can be done in pleasing the most people. I have liked all of the re-records of yours that I have heard. And while you may say that it is geared more to music lovers than film buffs, your choices have made this film buff very happy indeed!

As a joke, I emailed him to say, "What!? Those were my favorite 4 bars from the whole score."

He answered the email saying he hadn't laughed so hard in over a month.

If your aim is to direct film music at a classical market (but are these the people who actually buy the MP film music CDs?), I can understand wanting to smooth out the cues in that direction.

But the question that started the whole topic is, just which version is the composer's intent, the sheet music or the recorded cue. One premise is that the sheet music is what the composer wants and he changes things to suit the picture, but what if the sheet music is only a blueprint and the cue as recorded is what the composer really had in mind?

Of course, I realize that you'd still gear things towards a musically smooth sound, so maybe questions of pin-point accuracy don't apply in this case.

I realize that you are recording for listeners and not some archive somewhere. James Conlin conducted a version of Vertigo to film clips and the results were mixed. For some cues, he's dead on; but for others, he misses the boat with the sound (for instance, neither Conlin or McNeely match the same organ pitch that is in the Mathieson version) even if the timing and tempos are exact. So even this approach has its difficulties.

Many *wonderful* re-recordings done in the '70s by the major classical companies have either not been issued on CD or were issued once and went out of print. It seems nobody cares.

However, the truth is that there are many cases in which a composer will be annoyed or even offended by the changes that had to be made to their work for the sake of the film. As a result, divining the original conceptual musical depiction of a particular cue will always be locked up in a composer's head.

In the case of Marco Polo releases, I believe that I have kowtowed before John Morgan enough for everybody to know how I feel about them. I think that pretty much all of the decisions made by John Morgan and Bill Stromberg are dead-on, despite sometimes very different interpretations than what appears in the film.

As I have expressed elsewhere on this board and others, the unique thing about film music is that it is not performed music as such. The end result of the process is a recording that can be tracked into the film. It may be annoying, but it is somewhat understandable when film score fans bellyache about different translations of their favorite musical cues because of the nature of the medium. Unlike, say, Beethoven's third symphony, there is a definitive version of the cue (whether or not the performance on a re-recording is better or not) because that is the one married to the film (and often memorized, note-for-note, by the fan him/herself)

That's one of the main reasons why I am always sitting on the fence regarding original tracks and re-recordings. I have heard many re-recordings that are way off, but I have also heard some that are superior (musically) to the track that appear in the film itself.

John (may I call you John?) I am actually surprised to hear that the Marco Polo releases are aimed more towards the classical market than the film score enthusiasts (perhaps because I am a film score fan that loves your work). Having worked at a record store in the classical section for many years, I have come across much musical snobbery (i.e. people really interested in a piece of music that lose that interest as soon as they find out that it is a film score that they're listening to) and found it quite surprising that many very film score sounding albums that you've released, e.g. those by Max Steiner, are finding an audience with these people.

I certainly hope so, Swashbuckler!
Actually, Marco Polo is a classical label and although we do the film scores, often times these CDs only end up in the classical bin, rather than the classical AND film music bins. At least here in Los Angeles, they are now getting into both...at least at the larger stores..Tower and -Virgin.

i am afraid is the Marco Polo series was only aimed at Film Score buffs, we would have been dead years ago! Most fans (and this is understandable) really by film music for the films they represent. Many don't know any films before Jaws.
When I grew up, all these classic Golden Age Films were on television on the early and late shows. I was in heaven because I was much too young to see most of them in theaters. Unfortunately, these films today are regulated to AMC, TCM or some other specialty station and you really have to seek them out. They mean nothing to most people today and I feel bad about that, but it is understandable, just a little disheartening.
So, I have somewhat happy that the composer's name is selling our discs to whomever. Steiner is always a big sell...even films NOT associated with KONG, Korngold is up there, followed by Herrmann and others. It is still a niche audience, but I am glad we have enough of a following to continue...

And yes, please call me John.....

just keep doing the GREAT WORK you and your compatriots have been doing. I couldn't care less how it's categorized or pigeonholed. JUST KEEP IT COMING, and God bless.