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Goldsmith's "Flint" & "Batman Forever"

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Author	Topic: Goldsmith's "Flint" & "Batman Forever"

sakman Oscar® Winner	I picked up the Varese "Flint" scores and as I listened the music sounded really familiar. By the time I had gotten through "In Like Flint" and had begun listening to "Our Man Flint" I realized I had heard that theme before in Goldenthal's music for "Batman Forever". Now before you all jump on me, I am not one to point out this but this is alarmingly the same. I wonder, did Goldenthal knowingly use this musical theme as a form of "parody" composition (I find it hard to believe that anyone would have noticed this since so few could have made the connection.) Is this one of those "hommage" nods to Goldsmith by Goldenthal? Any ideas out there? [And the orcehstrations may differ, but the bottom line is that the Flint theme is practically identical to one of the melodic bits in "Batman Forever".]
posted 12-27-2000 02:40 PM PT (US)

OHMSS76 Oscar® Winner	Thats interesting, and I'm trying to run down in my mind which themes would be similar in both scores. Which cues, specifically, from these two scores are the ones to compare? Since Schumacher's films were so kitschy, it was probably intentional. The Flint scores are pretty highly regarded by composers(Young's The Man who Knew Too Little). Either way, everyone should own a copy of the Varese Flint scores. 65mins of Goldsmith fun! Sean [Message edited by OHMSS76 on 12-27-2000]
posted 12-27-2000 02:52 PM PT (US)

H Rocco Oscar® Winner	Hmm, I never noticed this. It's a strange score for Goldenthal to "homage" to, but maybe it was a private joke of his own. Or he'd just liked the Goldsmith score and it happened to stick in his head. Who knows? Coincidences happen ... I doubt very much that either Jerry Goldsmith or Joseph Harnell were aware what the other was up to when they wrote the love theme from THE CASSANDRA CROSSING (Goldsmith) and the Lonely Man theme from THE INCREDIBLE HULK (Harnell), yet they're alarmingly similar. But both released so close together that I very much doubt one would have influenced the other.
posted 12-27-2000 02:58 PM PT (US)

jonathan_little Oscar® Winner	I'm not familiar with the score to Batman Forever, but there is definitely some Flint in John Debney's Relative Values (Listen to this real audio cl).
posted 12-27-2000 10:06 PM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Oscar® Winner	I don't know Flint, but Goldenthal definitely sneaked (great) parodies of Also Sprach Zarathustra and Psycho into his Batman, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are more of them. NP: Masada (Jerry Goldsmith) [Message edited by Marian Schedenig on 12-28-2000]
posted 12-28-2000 09:07 AM PT (US)

sakman Oscar® Winner	Ok...if you have both discs....listen to #4 "Ahh, Your Father's Bob-lip #16 "Our Man Flint" #19 "NY Skyline"--especially about half way in #20 "A Bit of Research" & on "Batman Forever" #13 "Mr. E's Dance Card" [Message edited by sakman on 12-28-2000]
posted 12-28-2000 10:20 AM PT (US)

André Lux Oscar® Winner	Incredible! I always noticed this similarity between "Flint" and "Batman Forever". Just the other day I was listening to Flint and thinking in create a thread to point this out! Indeed the themes sound very similar just to be a coincidence...
posted 12-28-2000 12:04 PM PT (US)

Jeron Oscar® Winner	I'm gonna take a chance here and go against the grain... Sakman, I honestly do not hear the "lift" you are claiming Goldenthal took. Yes, in Goldsmith's composition there is a specific sequence of notes that occur, but I'd have to say Goldenthal's theme is quite different in it's own right. I only hear key similarities. Thematically, they don't match up. I believe this is a coincidence, or, more of an instance where Goldenthal is subconciously recalling music he's familiar with. Instead of comparing Goldenthal and Goldsmith, I'd much rather follow Jonathan's lead and compare "Flint" with Debney's "Relative Values." Jonathan, I noticed the similarities between these two instantly. What a blatant usage of Goldsmith's theme. Sure, a couple notes are changed here and there... but it's virtually the same music. Jeron
posted 12-28-2000 03:12 PM PT (US)

sakman Oscar® Winner	Jeron, I like both these composers' music too much to accuse of plagiarism or anything. I just found it interesting. After all, the "Batman Forever" score is a lot of fun and is filled with so many pastiche references. I just thought it odd that this sounded so much a like. I sincerely doubt that Goldenthal ever heard the Flint music or saw the films anyway. There are only so many notes after all!
posted 12-28-2000 04:11 PM PT (US)

Bulldog Oscar® Winner	I've always noticed this interesting similarity, too! Thanks for writing about it sakman!
posted 12-30-2000 05:44 PM PT (US)

JJH Oscar® Winner	I would hesitate to call Debney's use of Flint as blatant. it's obvious that it's a purposeful use of that theme, and used in the proper context in the film, meaning that the theme is meant to be heard and recognized as a parody. I mean, the film IS a comedy after all. NP -- Taras Bulba, Franzie baby!
posted 12-30-2000 07:04 PM PT (US)

Jeron Oscar® Winner	Okay JJ, have it your way... "Blatant, BUT purposeful..." How's that??? Jer
posted 12-30-2000 07:10 PM PT (US)

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