I was watching it again on DVD and catch myself saying: "Hei, this music is really nice.. So different from the rest rip-of crap.." on that scene were they are trying to show how nasty war is. You know, right in the first battle, when the romans are already winning, the sequence which ends with Maximus crying "Roma Victor".

Then I said: "Whait a minute! I know this!". And after a few minutes researching my mental archive for film music I finaly shouted: "It's from Morricone's SECRET OF THE SAHARA!!"

So I did a test just to check if it wasn't just paranoia. I called my wife and my mother and put the movie to play. Them, I put Morricone's cd to play, cue "Miriam and Philip". I didn't told them anything, except "Pay attention".
After that, both said: "Well, we all know you like film music. But what's the point in showing us the music in the movie and them playing the it from the soundtrack album again??"

quote:

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Originally posted by TimT:
Yeah the sequence at the end of the battle, is Kerim from Secret of the Sahara. I've known this for a long time.
I would'nt call it a rip off though, I think Zimmer just used what works. I mean if the music is good why not use it?

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Um ... cuz it was composed by somebody else who isn't getting credit?

If you borrow a line or lines from a famous piece of literature,
you enclose it in quotation marks and perhaps reference the
source in a bibliography or footnote. If a composer directly
uses another composer’s composition, he should credit it.
Using another composer’s music may be flattering but acknowledgment
is essential AND ethical.

I don't think Morricone was flatered to know that Zimmer used his music as his own! I wouldn't!!

BTW, I was surprised to see Zimmer saying he used Wagner on the arrival at Rome sequence. At least, he admits it...

And that makes me wonder... Why hire someone who obviously CAN'T compose original music to score a movie? I mean, Zimmer himself acknowledge he is not a real composer on that embarrassing interview featured on the DVD:

quote:

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"You know you can't do this again, that you are a fraud, that you should call the studio and say "Find yourselves a real composer! I can't do it! I can't do it!" And them something happens...

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Yeah, sure something happens. He start to use other people's work and get all the credit!!

With so many real good film composers around, why in God's name this people continue to hire this hacks to ruin their own movies??

Unbelievable...

[Message edited by André Lux on 12-28-2000]

So, why in the world would Zimmer fail to do that? This is not good. Not good at all. A lot of respect I had for him has now faded.

Scott

Still, all composers "steal" to a greater or lesser degree. Williams, Conti and Eidelman have paraphrased Holst's "Planets" extensively, and Goldsmith forthrightly admitted that his score to THE MAN (1972) is basically Aaron Copland's "Fanfare for the Common Man." ("I think pretty much every composer's done their own version of the 'Fanfare,'" he said.)

Insert sarcastic references to James Horner here.

P.S. Spielberg bought Leigh Harline's "When You Wish Upon A Star" for CE3K, and actually wanted to use the whole song, lyrics and all, for the finale, but Williams talked him out of it, and only used the fragment that IS there under duress.

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott:

So, why in the world would Zimmer fail to do that?

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Why Scott? Because that's how is getting all his "fame and fortune". Most people these days who worship Zimmer and cia don't have a clue about what's going on his scores...

This is real a shame to movie music business, to say the least!

In today's "everything must be tested, re-tested and blandificated before release" cinema market, directors often want bland, nondescript scores because it's easier to control them (through re-tracking or editing) than it is with a full-composed score.

Hans Zimmer's success is based on the fact that his scores have a "no-frills" quality to them. They're like Big Macs. Fast, simple, predictible.

In the particular case of Ridley Scott, here's a guy that could never keep his greasy paws off a film score. He mangled the two Jerry Goldsmith scores written for him (all the while rhapsodizing about how great the music is) then even allows one to be dropped from American theatrical release. His collaborations with Vangelis have been a bit more fruitful, as Vangelis composes cues to be dropped in at the director's will; the only composer that would have loved to have worked with him again was Howard Blake.

In the end, one must admit that while Scott is an amazing visualist and a very good dramatist, he has a tin ear.

If done conciously, credit should be given (and perhaps more, like royalties?).

If this occurs subconciously (it's possible for a music writer to be inspired by what may be previous experience of hearing another composer's work), then the only sure way to 'test' the work for 'originality' would be to
have several well educated listeners give their opinions (which is happening on this thread!) in regards to the issue. How to list credit in this case is more problematic; I'm not even recommending the practice either way.

I notice that the voting for the year's best score on this site shows Gladiator at 31% of 1042 votes, far ahead of 2nd place. So, it's quite obvious that this score has wide appeal amongst many listeners. After watching the movie twice over the holidays (still believe the movie is far better than generally given credit for), I decided that I would like to own the CD too!

quote:

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Originally posted by Camillu:
Does anyone know where i could hear a clip of this Morricone piece you're all referring to, coz now I'm really curious?

Thanks

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Ok I went and listened to both pieces closely, and they are very simular, however Zimmer speeds up the rhythm a bit on the last 2 or 3 notes.
I still like it though.

Compare for youself, what do you think?
Right-Click and Choose Save-As
Ennio Morricone's Kerim Theme
Hans Zimmer's Theme

Here's hoping.

And now to say something about my comment above. I was just thrilled not to see Horner's name in the title. In my mind, Zimmer has written several good scores: The Lion King, Nine Months, Beyond Rangoon and Backdraft for example. And certain people here seem to be in love with "The Thin Red Line" so just let the guy be. Every composer borrows music from another and it will continue to happen even if we disagree with it. Who knows, John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith most likely do the same thing but we just haven't discovered it yet.

I dunno... this is just me rambling. Hope there are some useful tidbits in there. Tell me if I made any sense!

Jeron

I was having a good old think the other day and thought that perhaps, like you say, someone like Horner for instance doesn't realise that he is repeating himself, or he does but he doesn't think of the way it will appear on CD, he thinks about the way it will affect the final product of the actual film.
Enhancing the quality of the film is his job afterall, not producing 1-10 highly original CD albums and 1-10 highy original Celine Dion songs a year.

Zimmer's themes do sound similar but they are NOT identical, just as Jeron said they have the same affect over our minds.
If you say Zimmer's themes are the same and not just a style then you should also say that Goldsmith's themes are the same and not just a style,because saying otherwise is just arrogance.

Thanks for the clips.

quote:

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Originally posted by Swashbuckler:

Hans Zimmer's success is based on the fact that his scores have a "no-frills" quality to them. They're like Big Macs. Fast, simple, predictible.

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