OK everybody, I need you all to list all the places, and what you think are the best ones, of places online or otherwise to get Complete Score and Bootleg albums. I've just started looking in to them and would love all the help I can get.

Thanks.

If it means acquiring all the bootlegs ever made and leaving them on a computer that is permanently hooked up to Napster, so be it! Then we wouldn't have threads like "This Ain't No Fun Anymore."

quote:

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Originally posted by PeterK:

My two cents.

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The selling of them in specialty stores is -- for want of a better phrase -- a necessary evil, to facilitate the time and resources needed to [re]master, sequence and do the artwork for the CD. Plus, if you consider the fact that some composers are "unknown quantities" even this specialty store distribution is a kind of promotional work.

One element I left out is whether the union musicians are paid. No. BUT: the promotion is meant to encourage more work for the composer and many times they go back to the union houses, so it benefits them as well.

So a promo is quite different in intention then a boot which is made up by a third party with only that party benefitting from the sale of the CD.

PeterK, that napster thing is great. In fact, we should have our very own napster service for film music only. Yeah, all unreleased music. Awesome...I like that.

Scott

Imagine, if you will, that a particular score (say, THE KILLER STORM - just made that up) was recorded in Los Angeles with a Union orchestra. Because the reuse fees are expensive, there doesn't look to be any score album on the immediate horizon.

A bootleg shows up. On Napster, on CD, whatever. Money is passed around for the CD ($20 or $30 a pop), and places like Screen Archives, Footlight Records, SuperCollector, etc. get some cash for it. Who is hurt? There was no score album planned anyways.....

Wanna know who is hurt? The composer is hurt because they aren't paid anything for their music being sold as a bootleg. The musicians union is hurt because their efforts and work is also being sold without their compensation as stated in their contracts. And in the end, after the 20-year "buffer" (we're at 1980 now - think of all the good scores to come), it will be in fact probably harder to release the score legitimately because of the bootlegs floating around, and since soundtracks are such a niche market - would someone who spent $30 on a bootleg REALLY spend another $18 just to have a "legit" version? Be honest!

When you buy a bootleg, do you REALLY think that your money goes to the composer or the people who should benefit? When you put the score on Napster, you're fooling yourself if you think that it's not hurting anyone - even though it wasn't released.

Barry and his publisher approved the release, and if you look closely at the album, you'll note that it states quite clearly who owns the publishing and how to contact them to license it.

Not all promotional cds exist to promote the composer. They promote other things too. Composers make more money off of royalties when their music is licensed into trailers than they tend to make off of soundtrack sales.

So, all in all, the composer is hurt because someone pays $20 for a promo or bootleg. Very good. This gives the whole idea of having these recordings available for free even better. No one gets hurt, and everyone wins. Composers aren't cheated of any money, bootleggers don't get any money, and everyone gets to hear the music.

Ding?

Isn't that what a true, real promo is? Out of composer's own pockets, or agent's pockets, promos were once made to be given out freely to movie makers and others who may actually have the decision to hire a composer for a project. FREELY.

Look what the collectors have done to this whole "promo" thing. It's a real bastardization of the term. Call them what they are.

Recording should be free??? Come on Peter - it costs money to record these things, remember? Studio costs, orchestra costs, mixing costs, manufacturing costs, etc. Composers tend to pay for (legitimate) promos out of their own pocket. Yes, these promos are intended to PROMOTE the composer (or others, as I mentioned previously) by providing them to potential clients.

Please explain to me how Joe Schmo in Nebraska is a potential client, and therefore entitled to a FREE copy of the score that the composer PAID for?

Recordings should be free? Are you kidding ME, Dan? In L.A., film scores are paid for with quite a nice budget, thanks to the AFM. Any use of the recordings outside of the film are completely ancillary. If no label is interested in picking up the tab demanded by the AFM for a score release, yet some bootlegger wants to sell it for $20, I say fudge! If the recording isn't going to be legitimate but it finds its way to the collector market anyway, it should be free! No one gets hurt, and collecting remains fun.

"Recordings should be free? Are you kidding ME, Dan?"

I never said recordings should be free.

I think you need to restate exactly what your proposition is, since it seems to me that you think (and I could be wrong, which is why I'm asking for clarification) that if a score is recorded with the AFM and doesn't get a legitimate release, but finds its way on to the market (not a promo, but a bootleg), then that bootleg should be free and available to all?

Is that what you're saying? (I'll wait for confirmation before I reply....)

"Making CD-R"

"More music for Star Trek The Motion Picture"

Just because other people are doing it doesn't make it right (or legal).

What is your REAL view on this subject? (Without pointing to other threads, please.)

In the real world, alas, I don't think there should be bootlegs. Ideally, there should be a non-profit organization to release CDs of unreleased scores. Failing that, there should be composer promos which somehow pay both the composer and the orchestra, although perhaps not with such exorbatent re-use fees as currently exist. Failing that, there should be isos on the DVDs for all unreleased scores.
Unfortunately, I don't see bootlegs fitting into the equation anywhere. I buy them, or rather, I try to get CDRs of them instead of originals (at least the bootleggers make no money that way), but in the end, they're not good. Free or otherwise, a bootleg hurts people by it's very existance. I try to minimize that hurt, through CDRs, as I said, and through always buying the official releases if I'm going to get a complete boot, but I can't pretend that it doesn't hurt anybody at all. I also can't come up with a true solution (except maybe the perfect world scenario).

NP: Proof of Life (damn! this score rocks!)
[and it still does after my 5th listen]

Let's call it straight: no one is losing money since it wasn't released in the first place. Pirating legitimate releases or jumping in with a bootleg of an imminent release is one thing. This is indeed cutting into the record label's profits. I'm not mentioning the musicians or composers since they were already paid. Making available something that was never going to be or can't be released is quite another. They can't lose something they never had. I grant you, they are not profiting from these releases, limited as they are, but they are not losing anything from it. I'll put it another way: if the bootleg never came about, they would have no more and no less money in their pocket than if it didn't. We're dealing with stuff that hasn't been released (not to mention that they were already paid for their services when they performed and recorded it) and, in most cases, has no plans on being released. I think this is the basis of PeterK's argument. He's not talking about placing released material on a file sharing service like Napster which is the industry's main argument against it.

If anything, the movie industry's musicians and composers are MUCH better taken care of in the way of royalties and "re-use" (what a concept) fees paid as opposed to other musicians. The unions are paid up-front, whether or not the album sells. If it sells, they get paid more; if not, they don't return the money and it must be used as a tax write-off by the record company. On the other hand, the majority of other musicians (rock, jazz, whatever) are lucky to see any of the profits from any release by a record label and are many times indebted to the record company because they didn't sell enough records to cover the advance given to them for the recording of the album, or to cover marketing, touring, and other bills. In what industry other than showbiz can one keep getting paid for work already done? Re-use fees, residuals, performance fees...the list goes on. Please spare me the sob stories. Any union members are paid handsomely for what they do. To make it sound like selling a few bootlegs of recordings that aren't even available elsewhere is taking food off the table of some union member is nothing but propaganda.

In reference to the 20 year clause: if it wasn't for this, we wouldn't be getting chopped down versions of movie scores that the album producer felt fit to put on the release. True, many times the composer decides what does/doesn't get released, but more often than not, whoever's in charge of the production at the record label gets the unenviable task of making these decisions, knowing full-well that, no matter what does get included, they will be derided (perhaps not directly but more-so aimed at the record label) by score fans as to what was left off. So much for the good intentions of the clause.

If I were to follow your logic to the letter, Alan Silvestri got paid to write PREDATOR. The AFM orchestra was paid to record it. Therefore, the bootleg isn't doing any damage? How about the damage it causes to potential sales of a future legitimate release? Think about how some films are bootlegged, and how many pop stars have bootlegs out there (that are illegal) and then try to tell me that EVEN THOUGH they were paid, it's not causing damage.

majestyx wrote: "Making available something that was never going to be or can't be released is quite another. They can't lose something they never had. "

But HOW DO YOU KNOW that a particula score will NEVER be released??? Did you know that Arista almost released PREDATOR? I'll give you a few guesses as to why the release was scrapped.

Dan

My views do not matter. I personally hate what bootlegs/promos/whatever have done to collectors over the past 10 years. Against your will, I point you to the thread "This Ain't No Fun Anymore" as evidence of this.

Promos are meant for who they are meant for, not some kid in Iowa who will kill anything for the music. The bootleg business is simply a nasty business, plain and simple. No evidence needed there.

However, because promos have made their way out to the collector market, and because bootlegs haven't been obliterated from society, there is a certain reality that exists that we cannot ignore. This reality pits collector versus collector, and many times, suddenly it's not about the music anymore. To see this pains me, especially when I know where the source of all this comes from. It's very upsetting to see the term "promo" being used AT ALL, even if a portion of the promos are set aside to "cover the costs." BS! Can anyone get a clue from Film Score Monthly? I commend them for their limited edition soundtrack releases. High Road to China is no promo by your account. It's either an a) bootleg because not all licenses and rights have been secured for the release, or b) a legitimate limited edition release, because all satisfactory licenses and rights have been secured. Promos should remain promos (for example, a Miramax-produced score album for Academy members), legitimate limited editions should be legitimate limited reissues and bootlegs should be bootlegs.

Another reality is here, and that is Napster. Refer to my previous referrals to see that hard-to-find-otherwise-unavailable music can now be had for free. This freely available music will do away with the collector vs. collector mentality. This is clearly my basis for participating in this discussion, Dan. I am upset over the fact that promos/boots/whatever are causing strife between people who started out just liking the music. That's it, and I've been quite clear about it from my first post. Quote me on it.

I didn't speak for you - I asked you a question and you avoided answering it by pointing to another thread. I can only take that as I see it.

How does HRTC not fit into my definition of a promo? Based on YOUR definition, it's a bootleg because the rights haven't been secured for a legitimate release. But that's the case of most legitimate promos.

Do you have any John Debney promos in your collection? If so, do you count those as Promos or Bootlegs? Disney didn't produce the promo for INSPECTOR GADGET.... does that mean it's a bootleg?

And where did this whole "collector vs. collector" thing come from? What are you talking about??

Everytime you post, I ask you a question. Then you post something else, and claim to have answered my question. I get the feeling we're going in circles here, and it's not because of me.

Just answer for me the following 2 questions (even if you've answered them before - just for closure, reprint it here).

1. How is HIGH ROAD TO CHINA not a promo?
2. Do you think that the distribution of bootlegs hurts composers?

By the way, Arista was foolish to not release Predator because of a boot, if that's the real reason. They would've sold plenty of them, I'm sure. There are so many other soundtrack collectors out there who don't trade, who don't know about these boots, that would eat up the legitimate release. I would buy a legitimate release of that even though I have the other.

quote:

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Originally posted by dgoldwas:

majestyx wrote: "Making available something that was never going to be or can't be released is quite another. They can't lose something they never had. "

But HOW DO YOU KNOW that a particular score will NEVER be released??? Did you know that Arista almost released PREDATOR? I'll give you a few guesses as to why the release was scrapped.

Dan

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Yes, I did know that. In fact, there were at least three times that this was announced and each time it never came out. The numerous boots of Total Recall didn't stop Varese from releasing the new expanded edition. If there's a profit to be made, they'll release it. If not, they won't. That's the bottom line.

And yes, there should be a way to get bootlegs out for free. Sure, you may not agree with them, but I don't agree with selfish individuals trying to charge me $50 for a CDR either.

Actually, you guys heard of http://www.thefullscore.net ?
Although it's a campaign site against the Ultimate TPM release at the mo', it will become a site from which you can download bootlegs for free. Great idea.

quote:

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Originally posted by majestyx:

I'm also not going to wait for years on the CHANCE that someone will release a score I want if it's available right now.

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How many times have people waited for a particular release - only to be rewarded when it finally came out legitimately? Plenty! Sure a bootleg might be available now - but to have a knee-jerk reaction to rush and buy it just because it's available seems somewhat lacking in judgement, considering it very well might be hurting any record company's legitimate attempts to release the score legally.

Of course, many people are of the "gotta have it NOW" mentality, where patience seems to be a lacking commodity.

But then, it seems you promote the distribution of bootlegs: http://majestyx.8m.com/scores/

quote:

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Originally posted by A.G.:

In short, no-one should make any money from a CD unless a percentage is going to the composer.

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Now that has to be one of the first reasonable things I've read on this thread.

Dan

Yes, bootlegs hurt the rightful owners of the music, whether it be movie studios, individual composers, etc. Bootlegs also hurt the collectors in the long run, as well as stores who carry them, etc. As I've mentioned, the bootleg business is a very nasty business, one in which I will never support.

Who cares if High Road to China is a promo or not? I was just using it as an example. However, if you read closely what I've said about it, I said the album is either an a) bootleg because it's been released without all the appropriate signatures or b) is a limited edition release based on satisfactory securement of licensing and related rights. In this specific case, it's obvious that HRTC is b) because everyone involved is satisfied with the secured licenses and fees. Unfortunately, not all rights have totally been secured, so if the rightful owner of the recording appears one day and claims this is an illegal product, it's a bootleg. This is all obvious though, if you read what I have said above.

I don't have Ford doing ANYTHING. Why would you even THINK that I'm having him do something on my behalf? You're just paranoid about him.

I was just asking you two little questions that you spent all morning avoiding for some reason. THANK you for finally answering them.

Bootlegs are made and sold at a band or composer's expense. So, if they are already out there, I have absolutely NO problem whatsoever in putting them out there for free so the bootleggers lose as much business as possible.

I love bootleg concerts (and have taped a few myself) but I NEVER, EVER sell them. I trade them to friends and other people who dig their music. Bootlegging for a profit sucks. If putting boots on Napster spreads the tunes and screws the bootleggers, I'm all for it!!!

I find it equally dissapointing that collectors are now using their collections as some price to be had or goal to accomplish thing. I have a little over 700 cds, yet this is over many, many years and perhaps I have about 5 bootlegs.

Now all cds that I purchase or trade i do so because of one reason and one reason only. Because I love the music. I love listening to it. I came to this site because I was suprised and glad to see that there were more people out there who enjoyed this type of music. After all, we are a minority here. I never thought of people being here just collecting scores like bottle caps and the such. I don't even understand it.

Yes, I think pieces that are unreleased and will remain thus (like most all scores), should be available for free, it really doesn't hurt anyone then. And another thing, the next time someone tries to attack Napster on grounds that the record companies are loosing money I will hire a hitman. C'mon! None of these big record studios is loosing money, they are making an obscene amount of it while the composer only sees a little of it.

How, for example is it hurting anyone if we get some rare clues from Star Trek if we know we won't ever get to listen to it because Goldsmith won't allow it?

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In all seriousness: attacking a fine person and reputable trader such as Majestyx is a stupid and pointless thing to do. I have worked with him several times now and am STUNNED at the time he takes in carefully shipping CD's (and their very high-quality inserts), not to mention the excellence that his recordings always exhibit. This guy is not the enemy - just a dude willing to make music available.

I'm all for bootlegs until "the real thing" is released. I now own a TWILIGHT ZONE: THE MOVIE CD from Germany, even though I already had a bootleg of it, precisely because I expected higher-quality sound (got it) and inserts (again, got it). Just judging from the responses, I am obviously not the only one here who will purchase a Legitimate CD of a score I desire IF one is available. In the meantime, I'd like the music, please.

Oh, and Majestyx?

Thanks, man.

First off, lets separate the three types of recordings by category, and those are (with definition):

Legitimate Release - a recording in which a record company has paid for the mechanical, publishing, artists and performance rights, and has then, marketed a release through normal distribution channels.

Promo / Promotional - A limited release of a piece of music in which a rights holder, whether it be artist, publisher, performer, or mechanical has decided to do a limited distribution without fees being paid to the other rights holder. In terms such as this, promotional dictates, through legal definition, that no "profit" can be made from the release other than, where possible, to recoop manufacturing costs. If profit is made, legally, the creator of this "promo" must distribute the profit to the associated rights holders.

Bootlegs - Releases not created or distributed by any of the rights holders for the sole purpose of gaining profit from the sale of the release. As a bootleg, this work is not intended as a legitimate or authorized release, hence the dictionary definition of bootleg. Sources for these releases vary, and ususally never originate from the rights holders in good faith, but are ususally stolen from souces such as libraries or other archival medium.

Okay, now with the formal definition out of the way, let's discuss why certain things are the way they are.

Back in the early days of film scoring, we had the studio system. During this time, some of the true greats of this art and business flourished. Masters such as Steiner, Korngold, Newman, and Rosza were financially protected by the studios. Protection, in this term, means that unlike today, studios had orchestras, publishing companies, record labels, and recording and mixing facilites all on the lot (or at least close by). At that time, it was very simple for a composer to push out 10 -15 scores a year without having to be bogged down in the business side of film scoring. It was almost like a baseball team, where you had a line up of movies and composers, at times, were more or less assigned to a picture, even if it wasn't their forte. Only for major releases were composers ever given some bargaining power over what they did and didn't want to write music for. For a good reference on how this worked, I refer you to the story of "Gone With The Wind" and Max Steiner. I won't go into detail here, but Tony Thomas' essay about Steiner at the time is excellent. All in all, these were the salad days of film music, a lot was being produced, and when available (and if the film was popular enough) releases were pressed onto vinyl for consumers (those are LPs for those of you in this hobby who are too young to remember).

Since the demise of the studio system, composers have had to manage both the artistic side as well as the business side of film music. No longer are the days where you had an "on site" orchestra, a free recording stage and mixing setup, and easy publishing and release manufacturing. Nowadays composers must place a bid for a contract to score a film, much like you would if you were building a building. Obviously, as with construction, the cheaper bid sometimes wins out, and with the shrinking budgets on films for music (as compared to the exhorbitant fees paid to actors), the composer is left with a miniscule budget to bring everything together just to get a film written, recorded, and placed with the picture onscreen... and that's just if the score isn't rejected by a director or studio brass. In that case, and they decide to stick with the same composer, or pick a different one, the same music budget is applied, or in worse case, the money that the original composer didn't spend of the film's budget is ear marked for the replacement score. This past year's SCL/Hollywood Reporter conference's mock negotiation panel was a good example on how this all worked. Only if you're lucky can a composer get a budget over $500,000 to score a film (which includes hiring the orchestra, paying for recording time, publishing rights, mixing and mastering, plus the composer's and orchestrators and music preparers salaries), and more often than not the budget is much much less than this. Only folks like John Williams, Elmer Bernstein, Alan Silvestri, and Jerry Goldsmith could approach commanding those numbers, and even then, very infrequently. Each of those composers have also had to work with much smaller budgets as well, and as a testament to their saavy as and artist AND businessmen, they have reached as high as level as they have in the film music community.

Now, with some of the budgetary details explained, I would now like to detail why some stuff isn't released and is ususally relegated to the world of promotional items and bootlegs.

First off... folks, if you think Hollywood is one of those free-love artist colonies... I'd like to bust that bubble for you right now. This place and the businesses in it are just as fast paced and cutthroat as Wall Street in New York. It's all about profit, and only very rarely does the word "art" prevail... and usually at the cost of human beings and jobs. If you ever wondered why that great little independent director of a few years ago has seemed to become a schill for the big studios, you'll begin to understand how the "machine" works. This, is not to say that there isn't any "good" to come out of it... once in a while there's a glitch in the system and you get something truly great! Anyhow, I'm slightly straying off topic. So, since I mentioned this is a business, business are in business to make a profit... anything different is a pipe dream. So, when a studio or associated record company works up their marketing plan for a movie (which usually is where film music recordings come in as), the subject of a soundtrack for said movie comes into discussion. There can be a separate topc now of how the split works between score and songs, and I'll leave that there... but usually it's thought of as "product merchandising". Even though Varese Sarabande, Intrada, and GNP Crecendo are separate record labels, they still have to work a deal to become part of marketing the "product"... each with their own cut (albeit extemely small as compared to a Universal Music or Warner Brothers Music) of the potential profits. Even though, as film music purists, we don't like "songtracks", it's a plain fact that they usually out-sell and out-perform strictly score albums because of their marketing potential to folks outside the limited community that buy soundtracks.

In short, with legitimate releases of soundtracks, we're looking to it as marketing for the film. On the other hand, where promotional releases come into play, whether they be an expanded release of something already out there (such as THRTC) or something that has never seen the commecial light of day (say Chris Young's WONDER BOYS), they are there to promote something besides the film, and more often that not, it's the composer. Sometimes promos are released from music publishers to promote what they have in their catalog for possible release.. and even, in rare cases, and orchestra or performer may release some of their own work in order to get more work (imagine if The London Symphony Orchestra did a promo...the ultimate collectors item). Usually these individuals do not have the deep pockets (for reasons specified earlier about the changed film scoring business clmate) as a studio or full time record company has to dot all the legal "i's" and cross all the legal "t's". These legal "i's and t's" are usually all of those rights mentioned earlier (mechanical, publishing, performance, and artist/writer). As you, as collectors, already know that these releases, promos, are in extremely small amounts, usually under 3,000, both to skim the legal issues, but also for practical reasons... in short, there ain't 3,000 people in Hollywood that could give a damn about so-and-so's score for somethinganother. So, what happens to the left over 2,500 CDs that aren't given away to professionals, friends, or other industry folk... well of course you can't keep 'em in your closet... you dispose of them, and alot of times they end up in the collectors market either through a legitimate retailer or just as junk. Think of the CDs as shiny business cards that can get out of date (if you've had a job for 30 years, then you can ignore this analogy).. but I'm sure Jerry Goldsmith wouldn't want to release Logan's Run as a promo nowadays since that's not how he writes his music in todays business and artistic climate... it just doesn't make sense. Decrying having to pay $20-$30 for something labeled as a promo from folks like Super Collector or Intrada is just helping the companies and composer recoop some of the manufacturing costs... which for a run of 3,000-5,000 run from $3,000-$10,000 dollars with silkscreened CDs and full color artwork.In short, when a company or artist releases one of these promos, they are just trying to bring their balance sheet back to zero, or maybe just a bit less in the red than whence they came from.

Finally, given the logic of the above discussion of legit releases and promos, I'll finish with my comments on the bootleg issue. Bootlegs, whether they are free or somebody is charging a pretty penny for them is bad. I have to admit, myself, that I've purchased a few, and always have a twinge of guilt after my credit card get debited... but I do have to say that the number of legit releases in my collection far out pace my illegit releases.. and will continue to. Bootlegs never benefit anyone except the bootlegger and any, however limited in the film score market, profit they make from said releases. As Dan Goldwasser mentioned earlier, in regards to Arista's attempt at a PREDATOR release, that the arrival of two bootlegs on the market stymied those plans for a release because it diluted the potential (and small) market for the release. Even if we see a (PeterK favorite) Britney Spears or Backstreet Boys CD sell a couple of hundred thousand copies, soundtracks are lucky if they seel more than 15-20,000... and that release of TITANIC was a fluke... mainly buoied by Celine Dion's involvement and not because of those catchy Horner-esqu melodies. For bootlegs, none of the legal rights have been paid for and even worse when the bootleg has cover art... hurting the poster designer, photographer, director, actors, and the crew who worked on the shot or drew the promotional artwork usually seen on the releases. Saying that all music should be open and free is a falacy as well, since at sometime during the creation, someone plopped down some cash to turn it into something you can listen to, an illegitimate release robs that person from ever profiting (we're in a capitalist society here folks) or recouping the full cost of what it took to produce it. Usually soundtracks run at a loss... contrary to what folks think about the money machine that is Hollywood, and we shoudl be happy to get what we do get, let alone deciding that we are impatient enough not to wait it out and hope that the better side will prevail and we'll see a promo or legit release a few years or months after a given film is released. The bootleg market is fueled not by the true love of the music, but by pure impatient fandom that has gotten out of hand in this "I have to have it now" attitude of society that plagues the younger (under 40) crowd of today. Patience is a virtue and time is not of the essence.

I hope, that this brief essay on the subject straightens some of this wrangling out. It's based on fact and not the contrived fiction that is usually discussed in some circles and on the Internet.

Talk amongst yourselves --- ;-)

Sincerely,