Second - sometimes a bootleg is the best source of the score, ironically. When Varese put a chunk of ESCAPE FROM THE PLANET OF THE APES on their complete APES CD, it was a re-edited smorgasbord that sounded very wonky in places, albeit in stereo. The masters have deteriorated. A good sounding official release is, sadly, impossible. Ever.

But two boots of ESCAPE are out there, with more tracks and better sound than this official release - because, obviously, they have been lifted from a source that was made years ago, before the damage was allowed to happen to the masters. Also, Varese's THE MEPHISTO WALTZ is missing the piano from the main title (!) and various electronic effects from other cues ... yet all of these are intact on the boot.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stephen Lister:
Should I be 100% moral, and force myself to listen only to the official versions of these scores?

---

I think you just answered your own question.

Dan

Sometimes the record company does not know about those releases, as was the case with Vangelis and Atlantic with the original bootleg of BLADE RUNNER when they were preparing their concept album for release. Also, having original multi-track masters allows the producers much more control of the final output of the release than simply copying a bootleg CD. It may be logical given the availabilty of a better sounding bootleg, but for practical purposes, record companies and producers prefer original sources, as I believe FSM did with THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE.

And, yes, there should be at least some twinge of guilt playing the stuff on the CD player...but probably not enough to loose sleep over... what you should loose sleep over is paying $40-$70 for that bootleg!

;-)

It's easy to tell others not to trade, sell, promote, etc. bootlegs when you've got connections within the business and can get practically anything you want when you ask for it. As for an average joe like me who has spent a king's ransom of money and time building my collection, doing business mainly thru the soundtrack shops of SuperCollector, Footlight, STAR, and Intrada, it doesn't seem to matter that most of my collection is comprised of legit releases, albeit many that are out of print, and legit promotional items that were bought over the course of my lifetime. This includes LPs and cassettes as well, many of which have never seen release on CD but that I have taken the time and effort to restore and burn to CD. Since these are the only resources I have, I make due with what I've got.

quote:

---

Originally posted by webjedi:
BTW, it doesn't matter if you're in the biz or not, a law is a law, and advocating abiding by it is not "taking a side", it's just abiding by the law... no matter how dumb it may appear to anyone personally.

---

That's very well and good, but now we're getting political. Instead of letting common sense guide us through our daily lives, we now have a rulebook called "the law." Don't question it, follow it to the letter, shut up, be happy. As though lobbyists in the film and music industry had no hand in getting laws like this passed for no other benefit than the INDUSTRY - not the musicians.

Yes, I believe that the "industry" that you decry (as I do) is a bit too powerful for their own good, and their recent steps to secure the sole management of digital rights is out-and-out wrong. However, there isn't a single thing keeping musicans and songwriters from forming a cooalition (sic) to lobby for their side as well. In fact there are several organizations that do just that. Instead of whining about it, send those guys some of your money, or even volunteer some time. Nothing is perfect, but we have to make the best of what's available to us. heck, if Time/Warner suddently got blown off the face of the Earth, I'd be cheering right along with you, but one less conglomerate still leaves four out of the big five left.. who will obviously grapple for control of their assets. In fact, given that... why don't you start your own record label... legally! I know several folks who've tried it... ask their opinions on how it is to deal with all the issues required to get a CD or cassette to market. Then come back and bemoan why things are the way they are.

[Edited about eight gazillion times since posting]

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the second half of my previous post.

I'm getting off the subject here but since we're quoting laws, check out the following site:
http://www.dumblaws.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by majestyx:

And I'm sure everyone dissenting on this discussion has their hands clean. It's also tough to take these sentiments seriously when a soundtrack record label sells bootlegs, or in other cases, are responsible for the pressing and distribution of them. While two wrongs don't make a right, I'd like to see some leading by example.

---

I feel I have addressed your first sentence there. However, could you be clearer in your examples of you defintion of "bootlegs" and the offending record companies, I'd be willing to respond.

Plus, regarding a link to "dumb laws", I do agree that our laws aren't perfect, and some are out-and-out confusing, stupid, and poorly written, but unless some body makes an effort to change them, they'll stay on the books. I mean, what is more of a crime are some of the stupid patents and trademarks awarded to individuals and companies... (example: British Telecom's patent on Hyperlinking)... stop the abuse, and you'll have an easier time getting the law changed.

(I now return you to your regularly scheduled topic..."Flyfishing from the back of a speedboat")

The most glaring example would be Intrada. Check their "one-of-a-kind" list to see the list of admitted bootlegs. And is it just coincidence that the Pony boots look awfully similar in design to promos Doug Fake produced for Christopher Young, Craig Safan and Laurence Rosenthal?

Next: Screen Archives Entertainment. Here's a person who claims that he's all for the preservation and restoration of film music, yet where do nearly all of the CDR bootlegs such as Soundtrack Library seem to always appear first?

I don't want to get on anyones bad side so I'll just say this. Everyone is going to have their own opinion of boots and complete scores and what not. So, people who like boots should enjoy them and get them at their pleasure and people who don't like them just don't buy them and leave the rest of us alone. And please, PLEASE let threads like this actually get answered. Not one person told (whoever it was who started this thread) where he could get boots. Everyone just started giving their opinion on their existence. Maybe you should read messages more carefully, the question wasn't "what is your opinion on boots?", it was "where can i get them?" (that's not an actual quote).
So please take this advice over to other threads as well. STAY ON TOPIC! ANSWER THE BLOODY QUESTION! NOT THE ONE YOU WANT TO ANSWER, THE ONE THE PERSON WANTS ANSWERED AND FINALLY!

MERRY CHRISTMAS YOU GUYS, and calm down, their only film scores. ^_^
Their ment to be enjoyed, people here are making film scores seem so dirty, when they should be fun. Santa should get you guys some sedatives for Christmas. ^_^

OH!...and A HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Bootlegs rule!!!!

First off, this is NOT a vindication of any of these retailers/labels, but a explanation of my views on the issue as it relates to bootlegs vs. promos, et. al.

First off, the insinuation (sic) for both Intrada and SAE are blatany wrong into how they may be the source. The PONY TAIL/EXPRESS and JONNY EXPRESS bootlegs are not manufactured via Intrada, a simple viewing of the inner ring, where most manufacturing companies encode plant information shows that they are different, and obviously not the same source. I can go into a longer explanation of how to detail this, but it would get waaay to technical. As for the artwork and similar design... heck, anybody with some level of talent with a graphics program can fake it reasonably well. As for SAE, a simple explanation is, that he's the most known and largest distributor of soundtrack and film music CDs and memorabilia globally, so anyone who wants to get a product into our specialty market usually will go through him in some fashion or another. He's not an evil guy.. he used to live down the street from me in D.C. I know Craig paid a signifigant amount of money and spent a lot of time on his Jerome Morross and Jerry Fielding releases. As for SuperCollector, I can't speak to their practices, and you may want to take it up with them if you're in need of detail.

So, this brings us to whether or not these companies are hippocrites by selling an illegal product while at the same time releasing legal CDs. In short... yes they are. But this is a supply and demand issue, you demand it... they supply it. They are, in short, like a drug pusher... they feed our need. If you didn't buy it, somebody else will... and be willing to pay for it. Is it wrong? Yes. And the only way to stop it is to stop buying the stuff, therefore no demand.. no product. Simple economics.

If it was an "evil" thing and going on without notice, well, I'm sure we'd feel like we really scored big with that rare CD we got last week or that session tape you traded four LPs for, but we don't. This stuff is out in the open.. and if it was really as big and issue as we've made it out to be in our minds, then the FBI, RIAA, and others would be knocking down the doors to these places and seizing the merchandise. They're not... so it's just us as Joe or Jane consumer to have enough common sense combined with a touch of morality not to vindicate these sales. But hey, it's everybody's personal preference.

And yes, I do feel bad for the composers and musicians that get left out in the whole royalty game. I believe if this issue is straightened out by law rather than favoring the "big 5" record companies in these types of disputes, the music world would be a better place.

If we need to stay on topic, as requested above... STAR (SoundTrack Album Retailers) in New Hope, PA and Footlight Records in New York are other locations to find your prize.

Just because the inner ring is different doesn't mean that the same people weren't responsible for it. They could just as easily have gone to another CD manufacturer. Since the Pony bootlegs were released BEFORE the promos I mentioned, I believe it lends credence to what I've stated.

I wasn't claiming that Craig was making all of these CDR boots on his own, but that he certainly is the distributor of them.

Why did your objectivity change when discussing Intrada and SAE? Previously you were quoting laws, saying who's being hurt, money is being lost; now you're justifying (not vindicating necessarliy) for the record labels with your reasoning. If they really don't want this stuff bootlegged, then they wouldn't be selling it themselves. I'll say it again, lead by example! Until then, I've heard enough slagging of how evil bootlegs are supposed to be. If record labels can't hold back from selling this stuff, why should anyone else be preached to for doing the same?

You said: This stuff is out in the open.. and if it was really as big and issue as we've made it out to be in our minds (snip)

quote:

---

Originally posted by jonathan_little:
I've bought bootlegs and promos...

Does this make me a bad person?! :eek:

---

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by majestyx:
A couple of things...

Just because the inner ring is different doesn't mean that the same people weren't responsible for it. They could just as easily have gone to another CD manufacturer. Since the Pony bootlegs were released BEFORE the promos I mentioned, I believe it lends credence to what I've stated.
<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

(the orignal edit was of different tact, this edited version is now replaced with...)

Okay, point taken, and if there is specific proof, then fine... call them bootleggers, whatever. Whether or not they did or didn't intend to have it look similar to release from a company may or may not belie the fact that on one hand a manufacturer of legitimate releases may get into the bootleg market. In general it doesn't pay to play both sides of the fence.

(my original edit of this paragraph above has been changed due to some question as to the legitimacy of the sources of certain releases)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>
I wasn't claiming that Craig was making all of these CDR boots on his own, but that he certainly is the distributor of them.

<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

So be it that he's a distibutor.. but he's also taken a lot of risky chances doing both that as well as extening some trust in the film music community by bank rolling a few select and great releases. Would you ever figure that because of this rise in bootlegging that it's kept him from pursing doing other projects like THE BIG COUNTRY.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>
Why did your objectivity change when discussing Intrada and SAE? Previously you were quoting laws, saying who's being hurt, money is being lost; now you're justifying (not vindicating necessarliy) for the record labels with your reasoning.

<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, no I'm not. What I'm pointing out is that they have made their own business decision. If they get busted for breaking the law, the so be it... we're out a record label... just as if Warner Brother's got caught doing the same... just on a smaller scale versus a larger scale. My objectivity hasn't changed... and I'm not a schill for anyone or group.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>

If they really don't want this stuff bootlegged, then they wouldn't be selling it themselves. I'll say it again, lead by example! Until then, I've heard enough slagging of how evil bootlegs are supposed to be. If record labels can't hold back from selling this stuff, why should anyone else be preached to for doing the same?

<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I'm not the owner of SAE, Intrada and the like... so it's up to them if they want to walk the tightrope. The market is miniscule for soundtracks, the Feds and others are more interested in busting bootleggers in China and overseas. When they get tired... or if they want an easy score.. well, hell, look inward. I'm not their moral concience... just expressing an opinion. If we want to praise somebody, take a look at Varese Sarabande... oh wait, we're all still holding a standing grudge against them for releasing such short albums... pssshaw... you fan boys and bottlecap collectors make me laugh.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>

You said: This stuff is out in the open.. and if it was really as big and issue as we've made it out to be in our minds (snip)

And in effect, you've summed up the whole bootleg equation.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite the point... I'm not trying to belabor the issue, but rather to make sure my opion is not skewed the wrong way as this site has a tendency to do... heck anyone who reads on occasion can tell you that. Damn, I've admitted to buying and owning bootleg recordings, but it doesn't keep me from trying to take the moral high road once in awhile... and no, Virginia, it doesn't make you a bad person... you just have to do your own internal audit of your concience... and I'm not the one to do that for ya.

THE END...