NP: Music Match

Parts of Zimmer's Gladiator score send chills down my back (I ammend that--parts of track 3, the battle scene). I don't care that he "stole" Holst's Mars, as many of you say, on the contrary--I credit him with the great decision to use it and with the splendid way he adapted it and worked it in to his own themes. Yes, the rest of the score is not amazing--but as far as battle scenes go, I think that both the movie's scene and the score's track are both top quality! I still get chills listening to it!

--Orpheus

But, once I sat down and listened to the album as a whole, I was blown away at Zimmer's fantastic sense of development. Tracks 1-3 are a prime example. Sure you can listen to just track 3 and it'll be fun, but if you start at track 1 and listen as Zimmer slowly builds and layers and develops themes, by the time track 3 hits it becomes infinitely more significant. That's where the value of Gladiator lies: in the development of the music.

GLADIATOR is one of the worst scores I have ever listened. The movie was not good at all (another shameful entrance in Ridley Scott's career after the dreadful GI JANE), with a screenplay stolen directly from BEN-HUR, SPARTACUS, BRAVEHEART, CONAN-THE BARBARIAN and so any other better movies. But if it had a better score it would be less cheesy (FIRST KNIGHT comes to mind).

The only parts of GLADIATOR which wasn't all embarrassing were the Lisa Gerrard's parts, which try to be VANGELIS but at least didn't make the scenes so ludicrous as the ones Zimmer scored with that laughable MACHO-MAN-BEER-COMMERCIAL theme he attached to Maximus - a character that was supposed to be filled with sorrow, pain and desire for a bloody revenge.

Instead, with Zimmer's dead wrong themes, Maximus becomes some kind of Steven Seagal clone, fighting to bring back "justice and democracy" (sic) to Rome...

GLADITOR
Movie: *1/2
Score: *

Gladiator is one of those scores that doesn't really have a "theme per person" leitmotif that we tend to listen for. Instead, Zimmer scores each scene's emotion on its own and doesn't limit himself to specific themes. I think in Gladiator's case, this approach worked very well. Try listening to it again...

-Brendan

1) a turncoat
2) easily swayed by popular trends
3) stricken with Parkinson's
4) too loose with my money
5) the unknowing victim of psychic rape perpetrated by Daniel2
6) suffering in the pursuit of knowledge for the noble cause of film music purity

Actually, it more or less a story of curiousity killing the cat: taking the plunge, spending $24.00 in the process, just to hear what all the fuss is about and, hopefully, finally, arriving at my own definitive conclusion of this composer's merits.

And, what have I deduced:

It's lightweight music for sure which, for the most part, seems to address marketing forces more than filmic needs...and, though this practice is certainly not a first, it inevitably displeases film and film score purists alike. But, when you consider that the majority of the planet listens to lightweight music in the first place, Zimmer's success really isn't a paradox at all. Still, I tend to cringe at his crude, pop informed chord progressions, syncopated orchestra stings hitting the beat by rote, and given to laugh outright at contrapuntal devices such as answering horn fanfares dropped in like lead weights because he's reached an harmonic dead-end or, worse, his oft-used dramatic ploy of culminating a musical climax with lumbering, "Hard Rock/Metal" unisons. Strictly speaking, the only compelling music on 'Gladiator' is that derived from more capable hands: Holst, and his ominous "Mars" theme...5/4 rhythm and all...which Zimmer uses to propel "The Battle" and "The Barbarian Horde", the interplay of William Walton's 'buzzing string/horn' motif from his "Spitfire" scherzo for dramatic tension, and the intermingling of Wagnerian sonorities and Mahleresque phrasing for that 'epic tragedian' tone, with additional support from Satie's "Gymnopedies" and Gorecki's "3'rd" during the reflective moments. And, as for Lisa Gerrard's contribution: the generic warblings of undefined nationality, the World Beat rhythms, each can be heard on any number of Mood Enhancer CD's sold in Hemp or Candle shops alongside the Aroma Therapy displays and Tantric Sex manuals. Nonetheless, I still listen to it every now and again. On CD, it's well produced ear candy. But, it's definitely not a thinking man's film score (or a thinking man's film for that matter). So, ultimately, no harm done. Stupid is what stupid gets.

As for the other two discs, 'Crimson Tide' and 'The Thin Red Line', the former bares but two tracks of interest to me: "Alabama" and "Roll Tide" which, not so coincidentally, share the same orchestration, harmonic approach, melodic construction and dramatic earmarks as his most recent testosterone exercise, 'Gladiator'...while the remainder consists of the usual synth doodling favoured by techno minimalists who somehow seem able to hear God in a drone with a backbeat. And, lest we forget his tendancy to raid the classical catalog, his interpolation of an all-too famous Prokofiev theme...for the Russians, of course. As for 'The Thin Red Line': it's innocuous aural wallpaper befitting the navel gazing bore of a film it plays to; with Gorecki's 3'rd symphony being the principal storehouse mined this time, amidst a good deal of blasé atmospherics construed from undeveloped cyclical motifs that wash past the ears. While they may prove soothing, they possess no lasting impact. (In fact, I have a stronger, and more favourable memory of Philip Glass' theme from 'Hamburger Hill').

So, let me ask these questions:

1) Is the success of 'Gladiator' and the accolades attributed to Zimmer simply the result of a culturally impaired audience not realizing or, for that matter, all that concerned being sold used goods?

2) And what of the inverse: those listener's who acknowledge the over-reliance on source material yet feel comfortable tossing the word "genius" his way. Do these people own a dictionary? As I've said before: if Zimmer's a genius, what of Beethoven?

2) Is Zimmer inadvertantly or intentionally paying homage to all these dead white guys (Gorecki excepted)?

3) Is he simply saving himself time, money and mental perturbation taking the royalty-free route, producing pastiche scores?

4) Is there any real appreciative difference between a Zimmer soundtrack and, let's say, a Madonna album or the latest Ford Explorer commercial? "Switched on Bach" was a hit if you all remember.

5) Like James Horner, is Zimmer just another minor talent who knows all the right people, and simply filling a commercial niche?

6) Since money does make the world go 'round, is it not inevitable that filmscores will follow, for the most part, whatever trends the marketplace hopes to profit by and, until such time as it points in another direction, those of us who take umbrage with it may as well grin and bare it, keeping our wallets firmly tucked away in hibernation (or protest)?

I'm sorry, but I thought we were talking film music, something which as forward thinking as it can be musically, also has a tendency to be absolutely unoriginal, just like 99.9% of pop/rock/gangasta/whatever.

I like the Gladiator score. This is not an assertion that it's complex or anything. Zimmer is far from that and always will be, but taken on it's own terms for what it is, it's good stuff. I get the opportunity to turn off my brain for a little while.

then again, is classical music that makes use of chants, folk tunes, and previously written material (such as themes and variations) all that "original"?

This leaves us 10% of the music world with SOME sorta originality. This is the pursuit of the real music fan... when their heads are turned on!

Back on topic, I think SPQR just hit the nail right in the head, particulary with:

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... But, when you consider that the majority of the planet listens to lightweight music in the first place, Zimmer's success really isn't a paradox at all. Still, I tend to cringe at his crude, pop informed chord progressions, syncopated orchestra stings hitting the beat by rote, and given to laugh outright at contrapuntal devices such as answering horn fanfares dropped in like lead weights because he's reached an harmonic dead-end or, worse, his oft-used dramatic ploy of culminating a musical climax with lumbering, "Hard Rock/Metal" unisons.

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That quite resumed Zimmer's "talent" (or lack of it)...

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Originally posted by SPQR:
As someone who, up until a month ago, had never heard a Zimmer score he didn't despise, suddenly to find himself adding to his collection copies of "Crimson Tide", "The Thin Red Line" and "Gladiator", only leads me to believe that I am

6) suffering in the pursuit of knowledge for the noble cause of film music purity

And, what have I deduced:

It's lightweight music for sure which, for the most part, seems to address marketing forces more than filmic needs...and, though this practice is certainly not a first, it inevitably displeases film and film score purists alike.

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So, tell us oh great suffer-er or "poor" film music...what is it that constitutes "good" film music? Please guide me so that not another of my CD buying pennies goes to waste on "lightwieght" music. If Gladiator is bad, what is good?

Please enlighten the "peons"

-Brendan

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Originally posted by Brendan A:
If Gladiator is bad, what is good?

Please enlighten the "peons"

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Well Brendan there're plenty of good music around.

I have around 500 cds of film scores, none of them are from Zimmer or any of his midi drones.

I can send my list to you, if you want. Maybe it would be a good start...

Let me know, ok??

Best regards,
André Lux, the "enlightened"

Even if you discard the Lisa Gerrard 'New Age' type music, there's still tracks like 'The Might of Rome', 'Patricide', 'To Zuchabbar', 'Slaves to Rome' and 'Honour Him'.

I agree with JJ. This score is nothing groundbreaking or incredibly original, but it's a good listen and I think it served the film well.

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Originally posted by André Lux:
Well Brendan there're plenty of good music around.
I have around 500 cds of film scores, none of them are from Zimmer or any of his midi drones.
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Thank you very much for flexing your vast film score collection muscle. I didn't ask how many film scores you owned, I asked you to site a few scores you consider very "good" and why they are so much better than Gladiator. I've got plenty of film scores and of course I have some that are al little better than Gladiator, but I also think Gladiator is a great score. If you don't, just name a couple that are so much better and why...that's all I ask oh "enlightend one."

I thought we were having an informed, albeit intense conversation, where our opinions happened to differ. I have been willing to admit that Gladiator is not a great work, that M2M might have some artistic value, and that Horner does rip himself off from time to time. However, in return you cloak insults in rhetoric...who is the sad one now?

I would wager that your mind was resolute to your now cemented opinion that Gladiator would be film "noise" trash before you ever heard it.

I respect your opinion, but apparently you think mine and quite a few others here are not even worth your time to consider as sensical.

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Originally posted by Quill:
I can respect someone for being absolute in their opinions--I'm sure you feel very passionately about them.

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What do you mean with "absolute", friend? That I must start to say that Gladiator wasn't so bad just to please you or to look cool? Sorry, can't follow this kind of logic. I like what I like and always try to know things before make my mind.

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I thought we were having an informed, albeit intense conversation, where our opinions happened to differ. I have been willing to admit that Gladiator is not a great work, that M2M might have some artistic value, and that Horner does rip himself off from time to time. However, in return you cloak insults in rhetoric...who is the sad one now?

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Well, we were having such debate. But them you started with the usual mumbling about how you despise "critics" (aren't we all?) and how you think these kind of people think their are "enlightened", remember? If you feel forced to admit all those things you mentioned above, well be my guest. You won't be the first.
But you must ask why are you doing so. Do you really believe on it or are you just trying to be accepted?
And I see you criticize me because of my "rhetoric" (sic) but I still didn't see you explaining why Gladiator should be considered a great score. Just because "it made a lot of money and the masses loved it" aren't the kind of argument one will respect.

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I would wager that your mind was resolute to your now cemented opinion that Gladiator would be film "noise" trash before you ever heard it.

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On the contrary. I went to the theater thinking: "Maybe this time Zimmer will come up with something of value", albeit all the people which opinion I respect said the contrary. But Zimmer failed again. Nothing new so far.

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I respect your opinion, but apparently you think mine and quite a few others here are not even worth your time to consider as sensical.

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Who are you trying to fool? You was the one who started all this "simple folk" vs "the enlightened ones" gibberish. Play victim all you want, but I don't see you "respecting" my opinions - on the contrary...

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I know await your witty, insult-laced comeback...

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I hope I haven't disappointed you.

Cheers!

P.S.: I am not taking any of this personaly, no matter where you guys take it.

Contrary to what you might think, I do respect your opinion (partially) in regards to M2M...it is genuine and original from an artistic point of view. I simply did not think it worked in the movie.

As I did point out several posts back, in my opinion, Zimmer's score works quite well in the movie and develops nicely. I know its not much of a reason for liking it, but its more than you've offered for your dissenting opinion.

But as you said above, the only people whose opinion you respect agreed with you. Guess I don't qualify as one of those lucky people.

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Originally posted by Quill:
Contrary to what you might think, I do respect your opinion (partially) in regards to M2M...it is genuine and original from an artistic point of view. I simply did not think it worked in the movie.

As I did point out several posts back, in my opinion, Zimmer's score works quite well in the movie and develops nicely.

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I respect your opinion. But I will never agree with it, since it's quite the contrary.

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I know its not much of a reason for liking it, but its more than you've offered for your dissenting opinion.

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Hehehehe... good joke. More please...

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But as you said above, the only people whose opinion you respect agreed with you. Guess I don't qualify as one of those lucky people.

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Dăăăăăăăă...
I confess I expected something better from you..

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Oh well...keep up the good fight.

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So, that's what you make of it? A fight??

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So, tell us oh great suffer-er or "poor" film music...what is it that constitutes "good" film music? Please guide me so that not another of my CD buying pennies goes to waste on "lightwieght" music. If Gladiator is bad, what is good? Please enlighten the "peons"

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Whatever are you going on about dear boy? If for a moment you'd revisit the preceeding propositions, even just No 5, concerning my having been "the unknowing victim of psychic rape perpetrated by Daniel2", you might very well come to this conclusion, the correct one I might add: I was merely being droll.

In your defense though, it's quite possible your monitor simply needs a good clean as it would seem the intent of the passage was somehow lost in a sort of blurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

("Out, damn spot!"

And, it is indeed regrettable that you feel so put upon Lancelot:

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I guess our "lightweight" ears just don't hold up to the sophistication that must take years and years to refine, (but less to chastise others for lacking.) Woe is us. Go thus into the world and use your powers for good.

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...and:

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Heads up. Everyone out there who owns a copy of the soundtrack to "Gladiator", and actually considers it of some value, deriving some pleasure for it: Lock your doors, grab your earphones, and shut yourself away, or better yet, build yourselves a bombast shelter with whatever audiophonic technology you can cram into it, this world is not for you.

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...though perhaps a visit to this site may address what ails you, and perhaps guide you to a possible cure:

http://coping.org/relations/martyr.htm

In the meantime, however, keep your spleen on a leash would ya, it's tracking fetid blood all over the place!

Quill:

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Well gee whiz...according to SPQR only the stupid or the ignorant would classify Gladiator as even a "good" score. I guess all of us "non-thinking" men (& women) should head on back to the ranch and listen on in the bliss of ignorance.

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To wit:

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...it's definitely not a thinking man's film score (or a thinking man's film for that matter). So, ultimately, no harm done. Stupid is what stupid gets.

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Where, oh where, in those remarks do I see your name, or any one else's, mentioned? Huh? "Stupid is what stupid gets" refers to film and score, not you and the score, or you and the film. STUPID!!!

And, to belabour the issue of poor reading habits further: since "I still listen to it every now and again", having stated that "on CD, it's well produced ear candy", though personally I found "the only compelling music on 'Gladiator''...to be..."derived from more capable hands", that surely, surely adding these three statements togethor, assuming of course you can count...you can count, can't you...would suggest I don't hate it as much as your misreading has led you and others to believe.

NP: Gladiator *** (as heard on CD, not in the film proper)

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Originally posted by SPQR:
Whatever are you going on about dear boy? If for a moment you'd revisit the preceeding propositions, even just No 5, concerning my having been "the unknowing victim of psychic rape perpetrated by Daniel2", you might very well come to this conclusion, the correct one I might add: I was merely being droll.
[Message edited by SPQR on 11-29-2000][/B]

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I understand your purpose just fine, however, I don't understand the need to so excessively prove something that you didn't really prove that well anyway. All I'm asking for is a little comparison and contrast of your idea of a "good" film score vs. your idea of Gladiator to find out where you're coming from. What is it about what you consider a "good" film score makes it better than Gladiator's "lightweight" sound?

...hold on...I have to clean my monitor off again...

Hasta, has it already been determined whether or not Hans Zimmer is an ass or a retard? I need to know!

Shaun