I didn't say "sucks"....I didn't disregard their ability to COMPOSE music.....I just think (and it is hardly an uncommon opinion) that the work of the MV team is largely interchangeable Product. I think that the homogenization of sound that SOME of us hear is not the result of some incredible coincidence, but of a conscious effort to represent that Product. Fine. They have done very well for themselves fiscally - which is, I think, the entire point of it. As to the rest, we're left with opinions. BUT:

1) As dollar-conscious as producers and studios must be these days - the ENTIRE reason for a huge paycheck for Nick Cage in something like GONE IN 60 SECONDS is to help ensure box office receipts - I cannot bring myself to believe that Jerry Bruckheimer has not ever noticed (or been presented with data confirming) that John Williams and James Horner have the biggest-selling score CD's of all time. They also have a goodly lot of Academy nominations...and if you don't think Bruckheimer would like THAT type of recognition, you missed the real reason REMEMBER THE TITANS was made. What we get, in Bruckheimer's case, are mixed-bag efforts (with, to MY ears, a distressing sameness of type) that include, in their album form, a fair amount of pose-rock or techno filler. HELPS SELL ALBUMS.

2) I'm not going to buy the $$$-for-PEARL HARBOR-means-he-can-buy-anything line of reasoning. It is simple fact that both Bay and Bruckheimer had to forfeit substantial amounts of potential compensation up front to get the film made (as a sort of indemnification against cost overruns). They're not giving up any hope of getting richer, thanks to back-end profit participation; but I still believe that the cost for someone like Williams or Goldsmith or Horner is the primary reason that Bruckheimer ever went to MV in the first place.

I can understand and appreciate the protective feelings toward MV, for the people who really dig their stuff (for the record, I have a few; and I absolutely ADORE their work on CHICKEN RUN). I just don't think that NOT liking the vast majority of their stuff - and having serious concerns about their possible effect on the biz - should prohibit me from talking about it.

You like 'em? OK! We can still talk.

I don't like 'em, for the most part; and I really hope I'm wrong in my suppositions about their possible long-term impact on human-derived orchestral scoring.

Go yourself, Mark! I was waiting for someone to eloquently explain the point I was trying to hammer home (that's an ACTUAL hammer--Aliens---and NOT a synthesized one--The Matrix).

quote:

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Originally posted by scoreboy13:
Way to go Jusitn. I have one more thing for Shaun, if MV is "ruining" a lot of scoring chances for others, couldn't it also be the other way around. As in the others are ruining scoring chances for MV?

Clay G.

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LOL! Yeah, I heard that George Lucas was trying to get Nick Glennie-Smith for Episode II but has to settle for that "John Williams bastard" to keep his friend Spielberg happy...

Tim

Clay G.

The reason that I believe the way I do is that I think he spends his money on the stars and effects. Someone else made the point here that he seeks only to entertain. Could be! I still don't buy in....there is NO WAY that a $20 million payday for Nick Cage for a piffle like GONE IN 60 SECONDS is about artistry, folks. That is commerce, pure and simple. Cage has proven he can "open" a movie - read, MONEY - and has therefore (in the Hollywood caste system) earned the bucks. As a matter of commerce, this is logical. Were it about something else, any one of a HUGE number of actors would be happy to take the Cage role - and would perform admirably in a smallish starring role, thus freeing up literally tens of millions of dollars to be spent elsewhere on the product. JUST AS WITH MY FEELINGS ABOUT MV, Cage is now a Bruckheimer regular (albeit far more expensive). This is not because Cage alone guarantees critical success! It is because he sells tickets.

I saw this back in March at the test screening. Bruckheimer sat about a row behind me. I met him after the show (he was standing with his posse of Suits in the lobby). His eyes bugged out when I asked if MV was going to be scoring it!

He seemed like a decent enough dude, though.

NOTE: PLEASE don't interpret this post as a "bragging session," though I feel my experiences with these people could provide some insight to everyone. Maybe not, but here goes:

First off, let me state my position where Media Ventures in concerned. I like them. I like the people - they're good people. I like the working environment... it's a fun place. The first day I visited MV, I wore slacks and a dress shirt. I wanted to make an impression! After seeing what everyone else was wearing, I decked myself out with Abercrombie gear and fit right in. It's a work-in-the-dark, stay-as-long-as-it-takes kind of place. Being comfortable is a must. What this has to do with the conversation we're having, I have not a clue... but I think it's interesting background info you guys should know. This is not to say Jerry doesn't compose in his pajamas. Or Johnny in his undies. Or Aaron Collins... well, you get the picture. Everyone at Media Ventures has a tremendous respect for composers such as John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, James Horner, Bruce Broughton, John Debney, Basil and the rest. They not only respect them, they revere them.

Now, for the slammer. For those of you who do not know, Hans Zimmer is a genius in his own way... but it's this ingenuity that makes so many of us resentful toward what MV is doing in the industry. Hans Zimmer, as many of you know, is self-taught. What you may not know is that he doesn't know how to read or write music. He doesn't even know how to drive. Sure, he has a driver's license, but he only got that so he could drive his wife to the hospital while she was pregnant. Kind of scary to think about Hans, on the road, in LA traffic, with a wife in labor - and on top of all that - little-to-no driving experience! That's a movie in itself. Hans in 60 Seconds, no? ...with a score by... Nah, I'll keep away from that.

Regardless, these are real people. They're people I personally care about and hope to continue to grow a relationship with. I enjoy their music, though I'll agree with Shaun - much of it is repetitive. I had an honest discussion with a couple of them about this - and they're not stupid. They know what they are doing. They know what I mean when I refer to the "MV Sound." They even played some improv stuff for me with the famous Hans synth strings... in what they call the infamous "MV Chords." They made my point for me... but they're alright with that.

On the flip side, and once again, not to brag... but personal discussions with Bruce Broughton and Alan Williams proved Mark and Shaun's concerns to be completely valid. While I was in the position to ask these important questions, I did. This was their response: For the most part, they don't really like the entire "Media Ventures" concept. They personally do see it as a film music/composer factory << Alan's word, not mine. They see it as minimizing great films that could have great scores, to great films that end up having mediocre ones. This is not to say MV's music is not functional, thematic, fun, etc... but you lose something important in the emotional context of it all when you go from a traditional appraoch to the more modern, MV approach. Alan Williams could possibly lose a job to Mr. Rabin; a western film Alan feels desperately needs a big, grandiose western score much in the vein of Silverado. That's not what they're going to get from Rabin. But Rabin isn't going to call upon a 60-90 player orchestra to get the job done. Mr. Rabin's demo tape is going to be 50% of his work for the film.

It's a harsh truth and traditional composers feel very strongly about it. Shaun, you may call Media Ventures a "fad," but Alan felt very confident that MV is here to stay... and that it's the very mindset you and Mark pointed out that will keep them alive: less money for music, more money take-home pay for everyone else. It's an almost tragic compromise (if it can even be called a compromise). Whatever happened to conventional creativity? It got sucked into the CG black hole ILM created over night.

As you can see, I'm friends of both sides. Call me "Mr. Positive." Whatever. I do like a lot of different things... and I respect everyone's opinions regarding this issue. My PERSONAL view is this: while I like the music MV puts out, when it comes to actually MAKING a film, I'm an orchestral guy, like Shaun. I'm more of a traditional type in the sense that I want a composer to be on the set at the very beginning. I want him to develop original ideas for my film (not limited to music alone). I want to be on that scoring stage and feel the music weave itself into and enhance my team's work. Most of you will agree that something like that is almost a religous experience. Sitting on Harry Gregson-Williams' couch and hearing his musical concepts for "Spy Kids" was terrific... the score will work perfectly. If my film calls for an MV approach, I might call upon Harry or any of the MV fellas. But for the most part... give me a composer with a baton and the LSO - or give me death! (just kidding, of course)

Yours truly,
Jeron

PS- Another note, and I've said it a million times: but it's important to realize, even though Rabin carries the "MV Sound", he doesn't have a contract with Media Ventures. He's not even directly associated. He's encouraged to use their facilities (sometimes), that's it. This might be alarming to some, as this "modern, low budget-oriented approach to film scoring" has now broken beyond the walls of Media Ventures.

Clay G.