http://members.home.com/avenger/music/love_money.mp3

Now, here's the deal. As soon as Cole heard this mp3, he began dissin' it, telling me it was a bad piece of music. Actually, his words verbatim were: "Cheesy and dated." "It's bad music." etc, etc... Dated?? It was composed in '93... it's not *that* bad. Now, I can accept when someone doesn't like a piece of music, but for someone to say it's just outright bad kinda gets to me. Digging deeper, I discovered that the primary thing keeping Cole from enjoying the music was Broughton's use of the saxophone and bass line. These are actually components of the score I enjoy. He also mentioned that he could take this to many musicians and they would share his notion that this is a bad piece of music. Now, when thinking in terms of how Cole thinks, remember: He's a huge Corigliano and Goldenthal fan. He loves the complexity of scores - and doesn't see the good in anything simple. That's his reason for loving Williams the way he does - "because his music is so incredibly complex and intelligent." What's the definition of intelligent? I understand the "complexity" thing, but does EVERY score have to be complex? Does every score have to have a serious approach? Cole has a strong distaste for shmaltz and cheesiness - which nixes the possibility of him liking Mr. Shaiman at all and Mr. Broughton at times... that is, if I follow his definition of schmaltz and cheesiness.

This really and truly is beyond me. I'd love to hear some responses as to what YOU think of "For Love or Money" - and if you haven't heard it, download the clip I've provided. It's small and provides a good baseline to judge the score by. If your a musician or composer, I'd also like to know what you think... Is it *really* as bad as Cole says it is?

...if anything, it's better than "The Running Man."

Jeron

PS - I know it must seem that I'm really raggin' on Cole rather than getting to the meat of the topic I posted. Not so. Cole simply represents my reason for getting to the heart of all of this and calculating a general consensus. Cole's a good friend, and though our tastes differ at times, I still respect his preferences. Just thought I should make that clear.

not being a musician myself all I can say is that the style is more Jazzy. Personaly I hate that instrument called, saxophone. Yet this score as some wonderful parts. Great parts in my humble opinion.

I only parted with this score because Jeron is a great guy and I know how much he adores Bruce and he is going to make a copy for me.

To call a musical piece bad because of its instrumentation, style or because it doesn't create images in one's mind is a little blant, don't you think?

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Originally posted by Scott:

To call a musical piece bad because... it doesn't create images in one's mind is a little blant, don't you think?

Scott

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No not at all blant. And not only does it not create images it has this certain mood or atmophere that I don't like up until the last part of it.
Painting images and and creating mood and atmosphere is my soul connection with music!
I didn't say it was bad, just something not at all appealing to me.

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Tim:

It's not bad music at all.

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on the other hand...

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Cole:

It's bad music - cheesy and dated.

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Cole wasn't too happy with me when he signed off to go to school this morning. I can just see it now - this thread isn't going to make him any happier. But that's not my purpose here. This isn't about Cole. It's about what Cole *said.* I just have a hard time accepting his "diagnosis" of Broughton's music for this film.

And Tim: What's wrong with it being "simple?" Simplicity is often the best route to go. I know of several composers who share this philosophy. I also don't hear the "70's" influence you claim to hear... and how can a theme sound 70's? I don't hear disco.

Jeron

Well, I liked the score. As far as it being early 80's that is one of my favorite periods for scores so that doesn't bother me.

Shock! I actually bought this score when Big Picture Music was remaindering all their stock.

In the film, it supports the picture, which is after all the point of the thing.

As a stand-alone listen, it isn't really in the same class as his other work.

The one track that really stands out to me is the German version of “Happy Days are Here Again” (I know that’s not the score, sue me)

The fact is, we don't really know the conditions that score was composed under. If Bruce Broughton had two weeks and a limited budget, then maybe it’s a masterpiece because of conditions. Or maybe it isn't if he had two months and a huge orchestra to work with.

Further, we don't know what this was temped with and how closely he was forced to temp by the director or the studio.

[This message has been edited by Cole (edited 31 August 2000).]

I suppose, in the end, this is a discussion that your typical Director and Composer would have. Both are coming from completely different angles - and neither are going to understand nor accept each other's ultimate conclusions. Not to say this isn't possible, as if and when I direct, the composer will come on as a creative partner... BUT, if my movie demands a cheesy and dated score, gosh darn it - he better be able to compose the kind of base lines that make Cole shudder. I will reiterate what I said earlier, Cole, you're a good friend, and though our tastes differ at times, I still respect your preferences.

Jeron

Regarding the Classical versus Romantic remark... sure, I can go with that. Good point.

Cole, is not trying to throw out that he "KNOWS HIS THEORY AND IS SUPERIOR" because he does know it.

Well, I am gonna say, "I KNOW MY THEORY and I KNOW IT WELL!"

In regards to this cue, I really think it is a very fun cue and serves its purpose well. I personally like the saxophone and I have actually incorporated an alto sax into my 2nd Symphony. This piece of course has that TV Theme feel to it, but it would be a damn good TV theme. The pop elements in this cue are very reminiscant of Broadway shows. People "love" Broadway shows and love the shmaltzy melodies. Pop is overflowing in the music and has that "good" feeling to it.

Complexity in music is somewhat misunderstood. Any composer can make a piece of music sound complex. It would be like me writing some busy sixteenth notes in every single part. Why do that? Sometimes, simplistic is better as Alan Williams pointed out to me. So, when I speak about complexity I am not talking about all the busy lines in each part, I am talking about the chords and actual notes themselves.

Classic example, which was mentioned above: Elliot Goldenthal, which I admire and love, writes some very complex music. The chords and the ways he uses them is a more "modern" approach. A lot of dissonance and much of the music veers away from a prominent melody.

Now, to me, classical music is not better, more complex, or more artistic than film music. It is in the same category and is appreciated equally.

"I personally enjoy a great melody. Beethoven, probably one of the best composers ever, cannot write a melody! I mean check out his 7th Symphony, 2nd movt. It is one note and a two measure eigth note rhythm! But, the music itself is amazing!"

Just something I thought I'd throw in. Well I am tired of typing and now I am off to the studio!

Later,
Aaron

NP: This very cue

JERRY, JERRY, JERRY, JERRY....

I really dig this score! The theme is a little Popsy, but works well throughout the score. Bruce Broughton is a A-Class composer and deserves much better scoring jobs.