Addendum:

DAMMIT, WHY DOESN'T VERHOVEN MAKE MORE MOVIES FOR GOLDSMITH TO SCORE!!!

NP: HOLLOW MAN (3rd time in a row)

[This message has been edited by litmus tester (edited 26 July 2000).]

The final few action tracks are good, but the rest is just average. I think that all you guys praising this score are just thrilled to have brand-new Goldsmith, and don't realise that its only a mediocre score. I love Williams, but the Patriot wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. I think we all need a better sense of perspective

I think others that quickly discount a score need to get a differen, better perspective.

This score is absolutely awesome. One of the best Goldsmith has done since...well I won't say you guys will just laugh. Anyway, if you find this score boring, with all the hidden treasures, then I just don't know what to say. Perhaps u need to get a better system, and I don't mean this in a bad or mean way, but this piece has so many nuances etc, it is simply incredible.

Also, to play devil's advocate here, I have a suspicion that if the name JERRY GOLDSMITH wasn't attached to this score- it would meet with a lot more criticism that what it has so far. The same goes for Williams' The Patriot...

Still, not to get too many people mad at me here, I have to say that personally, I think the Hollow Man album is pretty good- but flawed. And if you want me to me more specific with my thoughts on the score, I can.

Tim

I will get back to you tommorrow why I like this score so much.

And I didn't even heard it. But I now this things.

N.P.: ENEMY OF THE STATE (Gligson-Rabin/Homer-Xanadu) ***********!!!/***** (simply the best score of all times)

.

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Originally posted by André Lux:

I agree. This new Goldchimstli score sucks. There's no guitar solo blasts, no patriotic-macho-man-chorus-TCHOM-TCHOM-TCHOM themes and - the worst of all - the orchestra never perform the same notes at the same time all the time.

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Are you trying to insult someone?

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Originally posted by BobaMike:
I'm afraid I would have to agree with TimT...Hollow Man sounds a little dull to my ears. Give me the Mummy any day over this
The final few action tracks are good, but the rest is just average. I think that all you guys praising this score are just thrilled to have brand-new Goldsmith, and don't realise that its only a mediocre score. I love Williams, but the Patriot wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. I think we all need a better sense of perspective

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I didn't say why I didn't like it but I agree with you %100. This score is pretty lame and the only reason it's getting these compliments is becuase it's a new Jerry Goldsmith score! >( If you want a new Suspense/Thriller check out Silvestri's What Lies Beneath, now thats some great stuff.

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Originally posted by Scott:
This score is absolutely awesome. One of the best Goldsmith has done since...well I won't say you guys will just laugh. Anyway, if you find this score boring, with all the hidden treasures, then I just don't know what to say. Perhaps u need to get a better system, and I don't mean this in a bad or mean way, but this piece has so many nuances etc, it is simply incredible.

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Hidden Treasures? Oh you mean the french horn and the melody from Dante's Peak?

Shaun

As it stands now, 2000 offers me only 3 scores of notable virtue:

a) HOLLOW MAN
b) MISSION TO MARS
c) SUNSHINE

(of course, there might be one or two more, I just haven't heard them yet)

NP: something by Media Ventures! the beauty of their style is that it hardly matters what it is they're scoring!

It's about time HACKS the like of Williams,Goldsmith,Poledouris,Barry and Morricone were put out to pasture, and let these new talents of MONOLITHIC PROPORTIONS i.e. THE MV BOYS TAKE OVER!!
Stand down old timers, your days are over!!

Still, the beauty of Hollow Man is the in the music itself, done in that good old/new fashioned Goldsmith modernist style that he seemed to perfect earlier in his career. It is so refreshing to hear not just Goldsmith but ANYONE write a new film in this mode. The last great modernist score was Poltergeist and maybe a nod to Alien 3 (although The Lost World had flashes of modern goodness).

Hollow Man is still not as great an achievement as that landmark but it is leagues above anything this year (Gladiator is ny second best score of the year).

It is my honest belief that Goldsmith's writing in this case is superior to all but a couple of composers working today. It's not a question of would James Horner have taken this approach (cooly intellectual and sophisticated while at the same time brutishly primal) or would the MV guys have done it. But COULD they have. Do they have the musical chops? There's something to be said for experience and formal training and rockers turned film composer while doing a certain thing well simply haven't proven as capable at writing very serious, provocative and challenging music (although Hans Zimmer seems to be growing up into a musical adult fast).

Hollow Man represents a level of musicality that is on a plane beyond the average film composer and only John Williams and perhaps one or two others has the knowledge and talent necessary to produce such work.

While every other thriller and actioneer will have a cookie cutter (MV) sound for the next several years I wish there would be more scores like this... dynamic, assertive and uncompromising.

Tim

NP: Girl, Interrupted

And looking ahead there will be scenes in Hollow Man that will play with your head from what I've heard. Couple that with this music and you'll see what unnerving is.

No I didn't and wouldn't categorize TLW as modernistic but as I said, it had flashes of good stuff in that mode and while I appreciate Michael Danna's and Don Davis' contributions I have felt that since Alien 3 Goldthenthal has simply sounded out of control. Poltergeist, Planet of the Apes, Altered States, Hollow Man et. al. have structure... organized chaos if you will. I tend to like that better.

you wrote:the only reason it's getting these compliments is becuase it's a new Jerry Goldsmith score!.

Now you see, this is a big assumption on your part. Further more, you are seriously suggesting that the majority of this board don't really like what they like but simply favor certain composers.

Well, I will not let you speak for me like this. I like the score because I like it. Call me musically challenged, call me un-educated (as far as music is concerned), but that is the truth. I didn't like the Haunting that much, and that was a Goldsmith score. Yes, most music by Goldsmith I love, he is just darn good.

You know, I mean if you hate this score, fine. I can respect that. But please don't try to tell us why we love a score, you ain't that good.

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Originally posted by litmus tester:
Evidently the same old, same old suits some more than others. And, in an environment where the new standard in film scoring is set by wannabes (Media Ventures) and [i]hasbeens (Williams and Horner) it's hardly as surprise that Goldsmith, the composer of integrity he is, would thumb his nose at the latest scoring fads and take off on his own direction. Just because you can't get your rocks off on the first 10 minutes says more about your listening habits than Goldsmith's compositional skill.

As it stands now, 2000 offers me only 3 scores of notable virtue:

a) HOLLOW MAN
b) MISSION TO MARS
c) SUNSHINE

(of course, there might be one or two more, I just haven't heard them yet)

The remaing, though, are just over-commercialized pulp.[/B]

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I can agree here on most parts...just that hasbeen part is buggin' me...

Scott

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Originally posted by Timmer:
It's about time HACKS the like of Williams,Goldsmith,Poledouris,Barry and Morricone were put out to pasture

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Wow! And you actually believe that?

Scott

Tim

I think I've already said why I think the score is great from a purely musical standpoint. I can't be any more persuasive than this without referencing how the music suits the movie. It will make a tremendous amount of difference when we can do that.

It's not necessary that I convince you as you have your own opinion and you know what you like for yourself. I sing the praises of this score A) because it is exactly the approach I was hoping for and it succeeds beautifully and B) I'm simply a huge fan of the edgy modern orchestral scores like those that were more in vogue during the 60s and 70s.

Here it is:

Regardless of one's strictly musical preferences, I've come to believe that film music can be judged rather objectively.

Of course we only know what the film is supposed to be like. The music certainly gives us an idea of how Goldsmith/Verhoeven interpreted the picture. I should re-emphasize what others have also said: the real criticism comes after we all are an audience of the movie. I almost wish that this score were being released the Tuesday after the movie, so that I could have had Kinsinger's "virgin movie experience." Some might say here, that, I could have waited until after seeing the film to buy the CD.

To that I say, in my subjectivity, "Are you NUTS? THIS IS JERRY GOLDSMITH, THE SINGLE GREATEST COMPOSER WHO EVER LIVED IN MY MIND. I'M GOING TO BE THE FIRST PERSON IN THE STORE ON CD-RELEASE DAY...ESPECIALLY THE FIRST CD-RELEASE DAY SINCE AUGUST 10, 1999!!!"

So, therefore, I am undisciplined as regards My Man Jerry. And I can't fall behind the game at Moviemusic....

Back to the point, though. For a sci-fi/horror/action/mystery film, the music conveys--again, to as best we know--the moods of the film. We will, again, have to wait to see just how much Goldsmith himself contributes to the picture. But I'll bet, especially because it's Verhoeven that he's working with, the music is brilliantly woven into the story, and that Goldsmith's music plays an integral role in helping the audience to interpret the movie as the filmmakers would want.

As regards continuity, Goldsmith's score is another textbook example of excellent film score structure and design. Development of the material and variation upon the basics--in a way that we active listeners but musical laypeople can recognize--is top-notch as well.

The score appropriately meets our expectations of what horrific/suspenseful/mysterious music is supposed to sound like. Can't do anything but give Goldsmith props here. Music finds its place in film for the sake of helping us understand the drama better.

I don't know for sure, but I'll bet my money that the Master has succeeded at his job yet again.

I was going over "Bloody Floor" again, just a perfectly fused cue shot through with some of that Verhoeven steely tension and spiky hyperbolic theatrics, building, building, then released at least a couple of times in this one piece. Some of Mr. Goldsmith's most beautiful writing. Check the horn line beginning about 6:05.

Also, I DO like some of the MV stuff, not all, but some!

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Originally posted by TimT:
[B] Hidden Treasures? Oh you mean the french horn and the melody from Dante's Peak?

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TimTim, are you trying to insult someone?
Or is it just your biased opinion?

I wonder what Christopher Gordon would have done with this movie....

Oh, I couldn't help it, Tim. You led me right into that one.

Please, everyone, continue with your comments and arguments on this new Jerry score.

Np- On the Beach - Track 23 "Final Farewells" from The Burial Cloud Suite
Christopher Gordon *****/*****

YOU WANT THE TRUTH?! YOU CAN'T HAAANDLE THE TRUTH!! BECAUSE RESISTANCE IS FUTILE, THAT"S WHAT... AND WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAAILURE TO COMMUNICATE!!!

SO WITH GOD AS MY WITNESS I WILL NEVER BE HUNGRY AGAIN!!!!

Publicly, I attacked this score for being something I thought it shouldn't be...expecting something entirely different.

That score is The Haunting. While, yes, the movie sucked banana skins, the music was an absolute triumph of characterization and subliminal creepiness. I find it quite interesting that, with the remake, Goldsmith went more for subtlety, while the visuals were more gratutitous and in the original film, it was the opposite, the visuals were more of a subtle nature and the music (which I think is HORRIBLE) is in your face and cloying in a way that even a hot shower can't get rid of.

Now, if only Ray Wise had gotten Jerry to score the original (can we say Star Trek - TMP and Sand Pebbles?)...I'd probably be in HEAVEN by now.

In any event, in regards to Hollow Man, I have complete faith in Goldsmtih's ability to get at the heart of the film and it's characters, all the while serving the mood and feel of the entire piece.

I mean, how many DOM $$$IMP$$ONS (+RIP+) / JERRY BRUDENWEISER flicks this Goldsmaight person has scored?????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! ZERO!!!!!

See? He sucks!!

Give me Crhistofer Gordon any time! The two scores he compoed are miles away of anything this Goldchmidt ever did!!!!!!!!

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Originally posted by André Lux:

TimTim I agree with everything you said.

I mean, how many DOM $$$IMP$$ONS (+RIP+) / JERRY BRUDENWEISER flicks this Goldsmaight person has scored?????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! [b]ZERO!!!!!

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I don't understand what you mean by that...

NP- Message in a Bottle *****/*****
Gabirel Yared

N.P.: Message in a Tuttle (*****/*****)

Or is it Buttle??