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      Composers, tell us mortals what it's like

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    Topic:   Composers, tell us mortals what it's like

     HAL 2000
     Oscar® Winner
     

    OK, all you would-be scorers of films, what is it like to do this thing? I LOVE music but can't read a note of it, let alone string them together so as to create something of inspiration.

    Aaron Collins says that composing, particularly for films, is a gruelling process. I can absolutely imagine that it is. As a graphic designer I know what it's like to sit down and talk with a client and have them express what they need in often vague and incomprehensibly subjective terms and have to make do with that and still have to come up with something that is on target yet self satisfying. A blank piece of paper or a stackful of crap sketches after 3 hours work is part of the process but then, from some cosmic source, inspiration strikes and there it is. The solution!

    What's it like to compose? Better yet what's it like for YOU to compose. And if you're fortunate enough to ever stand before an orchestra of whatever size and conduct your own music... well. Just share with us who can only imagine the experience.

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    posted 07-26-2000 08:04 AM PT (US)     

     Widescreen
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    The process itself is something you have to be in love with or be just intuitive about because scoring a film can be labor intensive. We know this simply from stories we've heard about certain scores and how hard a composer will work on it, and all of sudden, it'll get rejected.

    I scored a B-Movie with a friend of mine a year ago for an instructor at the college I graduated from. It was a unique process collaborating with someone on it, considering it was my first score. We had minimal equipment but digital output and creative ways of handling how we timed and spotted where to punch something. We had to, in some cases, compose cues for two different versions of the movie- one PG, one R. The beautiful part is that this one was challenging enough by element that we learned so much. My friend and I found it easier to work the way we did, but the material was so flat it wasn't as juicy as we would've liked. We are scheduled to score another friend of mine's film- a horror flick (or so he calls it.) There are some well shot images. So that will have the enticing parts we're looking for. But the film itself is still in completion stages. That's the other part of the scoring process- as you're a part of post-production, middle of the last phase, youy typically have to do without scenes, credits and titles, effects, and wait on other people sometimes, unless you have the timing for these and an idea of the action. The results are less possible to accomplish in that respect because you still have to match what's on the screen.

    That's a nutshell of relfections on scoring, and I haven't really gone through a step by step process explanation- but if you want one, I know anyone here could give just as good if not phenomenal breakdown of how it happens.

    As for composing itself, having put together one CD, a music score, and as I'm working on finishing the second CD, I can tell you about my experiences with those more than anything else.

    When I sit down to my keyboard, I just begin playing anything- and I do mean anything. Something will just come along. There times when a composition will start out that way. Others, I'll be humming a melody and within minutes have a song in my head complete and ready to bring to the forefront. Then inspiration can strike almost immediately. On the second CD I'm working on, I composed a track called "Hurricane" and the way it started out was nothing short of amazing because I still hardly understand how I got it from my brain. I saw the poster for "the Perfect Storm" in a copy of a Premiere magazine, with the wave and a dwarfed fishing boat. Ironically, I was flipping through channels about three minutes later and saw a rerun of reports on Hurricanes in Texas. The results came first with the third part of the entire musical piece.
    The piece itself starts out with a piano solo with the note motif- Hurricane's theme if you will, then the second part is a strings (pizzicato and entire section voices), cymbal percussion (as in a first cymbal in a drum set), and piano to fill out the sound. The final part has strings, orchestra hits, timpani, and a synth voice to provide bass in certain areas so that sound is full and wholesome in its prescence.

    In this capacity, the first part represents the calm before the storm, the second part the drizzle and rain pouring, the third is the wind, the lightning, the damage...

    Basically, and without even realizing until I finished recording, I'd scored a weather event. The damn thing sound so much like a hurricane, it seemed the only proper title to give the piece. I dare sare its the most satisfying thing I've composed in months.

    But of course, you're getting my perspective on all of this. As soon as an mp3 or wav file sample is available, you'll be able to hear and see for yourself if you'd like a copy of the finished product.

    Moreover, there are other composers here who have done full-fledged material for the screen- and directors whose musical sensibilities match those composers. I do hope they'll respond to your query and give you broad scope that I think you're entitled to.

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    posted 07-26-2000 09:24 AM PT (US)     

     Aaron Collins
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    Very good question!

    Well, let me give you a little background. I started composing music roughly 7 years ago when I was 11. I did not actually start composing, I started out with arranging. Truthfully, I would copy out the 4 parts of a hymnal and expand on it a little.

    --------------------------------------------

    Now, composing comes pretty easily to me. I have a stack of themes written down, that I have not even touched. My first piece performed was in 1996 for a solo & ensemble competition. It was a cello concerto that I had written for a fantastic cellist. I started composing music for the concert hall and had a lot of my music performed by local orchestras and bands. A producer saw an article about me in a newspaper and contacted me. THIS WAS THE STEP INTO FILM COMPOSING!

    --------------------------------------------

    Film composing is, like I said, "a grueling task." Deadlines, making music fit to the screen, and countless other things make this a huge undertaking. My first film was primarily easy because it was a Natl. Geographic Educational Film. It was really based on mixed metered percussion beats and sweeping melodies.

    I then started the scoring of a student film, called Even Cupid Pays Cash. It was a very cheesy Romantic Comedy. How could I approach this I thought? The director was very hard to communicate with and had hardly any money to pay for an ensemble. I had a 5 week deadline for 35 mins of music. I eventually got a 6 note motif written and was fairly happy with it. I was sweating a storm, because I had a week left and had 20 mins left. I locked myself away and wrote like a cheetah and finally finished it the day before the recording session. Now I do not have an orchestrator or copyist yet, so, yes I have to do every single part!!! Over 2000 sheets of paper went into this daunting task. I am now working on my 5th film and going to be working on Joe's Cause and Effect near the end of August. I do not no what approach I might take, but it will be discussed between Joe and I. The good thing is, that he is very familiar with film music. But, that can be bad too!

    --------------------------------------------

    I have wanted to be a conductor all my life. I started taking lessons at the age of 8. This had not prepared me though, for when I was in front of a proffesional ensemble. I was very nervous the first time. Most of the players are 3 or 4 times older than me. Once I got into it, I really just dropped all the nervousness and let my arms flow. I have now been in front of 15 or more ensembles and I love it! I am very very energetic up on the podium. I jump up and really get into it. Its a great feeling!

    If you want a video of some concerts or sessions, here's my email:

    ACOLLINSUF@email.msn.com

    Talk to you later,
    Aaron

    NP: Starship Troopers



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    posted 07-26-2000 11:41 AM PT (US)     

     HAL 2000
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    Very Interesting. So are you plucking away on a keyboard of some type?

    John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith both say they usually write about two minutes of music per day when composing. What they never go into is how that happens. I mean, Are they noodling out the brass and scribing that, and then the strings and scribing that, and then the percussion and so on?

    It must be a real juggling act to make all these instruments which are doing different things all end up at the same place at a desired point. The whole act seems creatively and technically mind boggling to me.

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    posted 07-26-2000 12:04 PM PT (US)     

     Tim_P
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    While I haven't scored an actual film, I've come close to experiencing the pressures of film composing by writing incidental music for plays. Composers may tell you that the process of coming up with music for a project like a film or a play is a gruelling process, but I can definitely say that there's nothing that I've done that's as fun and rewarding as composing music for some sort of visual media. I remember a play that I worked on a year ago- I had 2 weeks to come up with 20 minutes worth of overture, transitions and curtain call music. Suddenly my deadline kept getting pushed forward. I remember working night and day for a few days composing and programming. People close to me were a tad worried as I looked completely beat up and out-of-it. I hadn't eaten and showed up for my classes late.
    Afterwards, though, I thought "Man, that was great! I can't wait to do this again." In retrospect, I think the challenge and (believe-it-or-not) fear is what makes film composing so much fun. And, in the end, to hear all of your hard work come together- it's truly the icing on the cake. (That and the paycheck!)

    Tim

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    posted 07-26-2000 12:36 PM PT (US)     

     Aaron Collins
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    ----------------THE PROCESS------------------

    Every composer has a different process to composing. Some composers go about differently in composing a theme. Some prefer to stay close to the piano and write everything from there. But, some composers aren't really proficcient at the piano, so they use other devices as sound recorders(you sing into a device and it puts notes down). Usually the melody is written first and then the rest of the music is based all around it.

    Some cases, like Medicine Man, Goldsmith wrote as much incidental music that he could without using the melody. Finally, he found the right melody and finished the rest of the score with that.

    All the doodling you are talking about is to me a difficult task. But, people like Williams and Goldsmith it probably comes really really easy. They have been doing it for years and know exactly what each instrument is capable of.

    The composers usually write out most of the parts on a score sheet. Some write a few brass lines, a couple woodwind lines, a couple string lines, some percussion parts, and a synth line. Once they are finished with this process, they will send to their orchestrator. The orchestrators job is to decide what part goes to what instrument, and even write some more parts that fall right into the score.

    A few composers orchestrate their own music; Williams, Horner, Goldenthal, etc. Once every cue has been written and all the parts are complete on the 'score,' the music is then sent to a copyist; who creates all the parts for the orchestra; which, could be 15 parts or all the way to 50 parts depending on the complexity.

    -----------------My Process----------------

    Themes come to me at the oddest moments of the day. I will be sitting on the toilet, and I get a great rhythmn in my head. Usually, I do carry around a small tape recorder in my pocket. I will record what I get and then when I have time, write it down.

    Once, I do that, I try to develop the 'part' a little more on the piano. So, I have this one little part. How do I get it for a full orchestra or ensemble? Well...

    I start taking a look at what I have in the melody. It is in the key of B Major, it is based on 6th's(8 notes on a keyboard), and it is in 6/8. What direction do I want the music to go? What style? All of these factors come into play when composing.

    There is so much more to the process! It is a very rewarding job. The "dream job" is what I like to call it. You write music, you have it performed by great ensembles, and you get paid handsomely for it. What is better than that?

    Till next time...

    Later,
    Aaron Collins

    NP: Titus


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    posted 07-26-2000 01:15 PM PT (US)     

     HAL 2000
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    Outstanding! Keep sharing. It's VERY interesting. I only wish I could do that. The only thing I have to compare is an experience I had one night about 3 years ago. I'll never forget it . I woke up in the middle of the night and I just had this music playing in my head. It was a complete symphony and totally original as far as I knew. It went on for about 20 minutes and it was crystal clear... almost as if I could hear it.

    It was GREAT stuff. It was almost as if I had tapped into some source and this music was channeling through. If only I could write music I would have tried to capture it. It was unreal and has never happened again.

    Call me space cadet but It's true. (Scully and Mulder should be getting the keys to their governmentmobile and heading my way by now)



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    posted 07-26-2000 01:45 PM PT (US)     

     Shivered_McTimber
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    Composing isn't the difficult part. Getting it to fit with the action on screen can be to most tedious part of it all.

    As a composer for basic "Student Films" at my school and other places, I've only had limited experience. Although I'm only 18, I've begun composing starting with about 2 1/2 years ago. That's not a whole lotta experience, but I can say that one thing I possess is a love for it.

    I sit at my keyboard or Organ (And Occasionally my Accordion), and play hopurs a day. I've never taken any lessons, and find it ultimately refreshing to simply come up with new themes and such.

    Last year, I scored my first student film, "War Film", and felt ultimately proud. It was a stop-animation "Army Men" type battle film and was only 18 minutes long, but the music was great.

    After that, I got heavily into MIDI programming, and love doing this. You can check out some of my work here (I'd love to hear what you think. http://members.aol.com/wizzez/midi/midi.html
    A serious career choice that I am considering is a Video Game composer, writing digital music to accompany video games.

    Currently I'm scoring my 4th "Student Film", "Tales of Kamaar: The Ascension", a highlander like fantasy with much sword battle and dark atmosphere.

    I don't know much about the whole process of Composing, but I do know that by the time I'm old enough, I'm gonna be a whole lot better, and maybe then I will score some great film!

    ~Shivered

    NP: The Soundtrack to "Riven" by Robyn Miller.



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    posted 07-26-2000 03:58 PM PT (US)     

     Shivered_McTimber
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    quote:
    Originally posted by HAL 2000:
    It must be a real juggling act to make all these instruments which are doing different things all end up at the same place at a desired point. The whole act seems creatively and technically mind boggling to me.

    As I compose, I find that, for me, anyway, That the strings form the backbone of the orchestra (Digital, as my case may be), and that the brass and piano and whatever else comes at proper moments. The object of a succesful piece is to get it to fit the mood of the situation, and instrumentation is an important aspect of this. I'm still learning how to get better, myself, but I am learning.

    ~Shivered

    NP: "Jurassic Park" by John Williams (My Hero)

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    posted 07-26-2000 04:07 PM PT (US)     

     Shivered_McTimber
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    Okay, this stuff just keeps coming to me.

    As I wander about my day, I tend to make up little tunes to sing. As I do this, some of the stuff I sing turns out great. Of course, by the time I get home to play any of it, I've forgotten it. Oftentimes I carry around a small tape-recorder, and hum the tune into there.

    Still, I must say that my most creatively inspiring work comes to me at around 8:00-12:00 PM. late at night, I write the greatest stuff, and it sounds so good as well.

    ~Shivered

    NP: "Jurassic Park" by John Williams.

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    posted 07-26-2000 04:10 PM PT (US)     

     Richard
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    I've played the piano for 4 years now and have been composing for almost 2years now.

    It began for me when I had to compose something for my music class at school.
    I wrote a 4 piece enseble (Trumpet, Euphonium, Violin and Double Bass.....talk about weird). Composing is something I love and plan to go to University next year to study it further and hopefully get a job in composing or orchestrating.

    It was about 70 bars and when I look at it now, its very, um, *cough*, very you can tell it was my first go.

    Since then, again to supplement my studies of Film Music at school, I have re-composed the opening titles of North by Northwest, which was actually only at the beginning of this year, written the opening titles and first scene for a film my friend intends to make, however due to limited re$ources may not happen for a while. It's an adventure set around the times of Robin Hood and such, I also wrote a love theme for this aswell.

    About a month ago, I entered a 24hr Film making competition, in which you had 24hrs to make a 7minute movie. For this, I just wrote for piano and a drum kit. Approx. 4:30 worth of stuff, and about 2minutes of it was used, but oh well, what can you do?

    I'm always thinking up new melodies and things on the piano, and this also happens for me late at night, the one time when I can't sit an continue with it, which is a shame coz I've lost a few good ideas because of this.

    *sniff*

    All of my compositions so far have been in MIDI format, and I made them using Noteworthy Composer which is really easy to use IMHO.
    I don't have any samples online, but if u for some strange reason would like to hear them, Email me and I'll send them to you.
    Ciao!

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    posted 07-26-2000 10:53 PM PT (US)     

     Widescreen
     Oscar® Winner
     

    Hal,

    If you're interested in an opinion on the music I've composed, please seek out Sebulba. He mastered my first disc last year. He also had some kind words to say about the last disc.

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    posted 07-27-2000 07:57 AM PT (US)     

     HAL 2000
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    I'd like to hear what all of you guys have done.

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    posted 07-27-2000 08:07 AM PT (US)     

     Gae
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    I enjoy composing as a hobby, I am a piano teacher by trade and I've written quite a few pieces over the years, usually short themes etc, but I'm not in the same league as up and coming composers like my mate Aaron. Have you guys heard the first movement to his symphony...its awesome!! Perfect horror film music...Goldenthal meets Beltrami meets Ottman kind of stuff!! Keep up the great work bud! As regards my music I tend to sit at the keyboard and start fiddling ( and then I play some music ...just kidding!!). I sometimes latch onto themes at this stage and start recording them in parts on Cakewalk...and then just keeping layering on other instruments/textures etc. Unfortunately, I dont have the time (or discipline I suppose) to develop the music much further than a few minutes worth of stuff! I've written music for scenes to films I have on video e.g. Frankenstein, The Wild Bunch and Night of the Living dead...but only as a fun excercise obviously and in the comfort of my own home. Its quite tricky getting the timings right and sometimes you have to cut a good idea short because the scene has moved on and something new needs to happen. I have also written incidental music to a couple of pantos that I played keyboard for. At the end of the day I would say I'm a closet film composer waiting to come out but I dont have half the talent of mainstream composers. I'm constantly amazed when I hear the way Williams et al weave and twist the sounds of the orchestra into brilliant works of art...seemingly effortlessely...and yet let us not forget Williams never really came into true form untill his mid-forties ( so theres hope for us apprentices yet!) Also, quite often I hear a whole orchestral piece playing in my mind but haven't learnt how to put it down quick enough before I've forgotten it. Once I've achieved that skill I believe my pieces will improve ten-fold! I'll have to follow Aaron's lead and carry a tape-recorder around with me ( I mean if I get the same ideas as Aaron "while sitting on the toilet" then that would be ideal thematic music for my first Tuba Concerto ....sorry Bud, I just had to say it!) One of the reasons I tend not to be critical of any composers ( even if they're not a particular favourite of mine) is because I'd admire and respect anybody who can put a piece of music together...its not easy sometimes and takes a lot of dedication and effort....as well as talent ......otherwise if it was easy, every Tom Dick or Harry would be able to do it!!
    Anyway, those are my brief thoughts Gae NP Thunderball/Goldfinger

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    posted 07-29-2000 01:36 PM PT (US)     

     Howard L
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    "Call me space cadet..."

    I won't, for I have had the same type of experience. And at times I've wondered what would happen to a person like Mozart if they were denied an outlet for the talent within them.

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    posted 07-29-2000 01:57 PM PT (US)     

     HAL 2000
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    Howard, please tell me about this!

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    posted 07-29-2000 03:05 PM PT (US)     

     Marcelo Ferreyra
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    Well Hall,that's a difficult questions because all depends of the type of music that You have to compose,or in other words, there are certain styles in where a composer feels more at home...because he/she likes more, because he/she has more experience etc.
    sometimes the music comes quick, some takes longer time.
    Another factor if is there is a deadline.
    In that case, and with no ideas, the result
    will be a good sounding music well writenned
    but not neccesarily a master piece.
    But I would like to extend in conducting.
    I always had a problem with conducting.
    And is not a tecnical problem.
    Is a mind problem (My mind).
    When I conduct,my works or other composers works, I'm deligted with the sounds of the score so much that I don't want to pay attention to the mistakes of the orchestra.
    In other words I pay more attention to what it sound on my mind that in what really sounds.
    And I noted that the conductors that are not composers don't care about composing techniques and form too much.
    They care at first how to make the orchestra sound well.
    They say:Composing techniques is passed history,what follows is how to make it sound
    well this work taht is all ready done.
    Really what I enjoy most is when others play my works,and not whem I conduct them.

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    posted 07-29-2000 11:32 PM PT (US)     

     Richard
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    Marcelo, I agree with you.
    I prefer having my works played back to me (the way I wrote them of course) rather than to play my works, I'm not sure why, but it's more gratifying, like I can sit back and take in the music in a way you can't whilst writing it.
    So YAY MIDIS!!!!!!

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    posted 07-30-2000 02:47 AM PT (US)     

     Howard L
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    HAL, what I was hinting at is my disdain for the way the pros look down on those without musical bacground who try to compose. They use the pejorative "hummer" to describe a Chaplin, e.g. who could not write music but had music in his head nonetheless. The fact that he must have used a transcriber or whatever is supposed to mean he shouldn't be credited as "composer." I don't know, seems to me there are plenty of so-called composers who write nothing but crap, and I say bring on the hummmers with their beautiful music!

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    posted 07-30-2000 03:11 PM PT (US)     

     Gae
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    HowardL, that reminds of the story of Lionel Bart back in the early 60's "whistling" his songs for Oliver as he couldn't write or read music. Look at the great songs he came up with though. I bet he had a dry mouth after that recording session!! I cant imagine him whistling the entire score though can you? "Oh, now heres the "Overture" (puckers lips in an attempt to whistle the complete arrangement of the "Overture" or "Prelude"!!) Seriously though, the great Eric Rogers ( of Carry On music fame) orchestrated and arrange Barts songs into the score we know today...you can even hear echoes of his Carry On music in the original score! GaeNP Expanded cues from TWINE....(thanx Jeron, your a Pal!!)

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    posted 07-30-2000 03:33 PM PT (US)     

     Howard L
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    Whoa. Haven't thought of the old "Carry On" gang in a long time. Great anecdote, Gae. And by the way, Johnny Green's arrangement of "As Long As He Needs Me" for the OLIVER! movie is beyond breathtakingly beautiful.

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    posted 07-31-2000 02:53 PM PT (US)     

     Timmer
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    Hi Gae,
    Interesting annecdote there about Lionel Bart, I wonder if he whistled From Russia With Love to John Barry?

    NP : The Space Between Us - Craig Armstrong

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    posted 07-31-2000 04:13 PM PT (US)     

     Timmer
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    p.s. Just thought I'd mention that along with West Side Story that OLIVER is my all time favorite musical.

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    posted 07-31-2000 04:16 PM PT (US)     

     Marcelo Ferreyra
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    Well guys,please do not confuse songwritter,
    (Agree,sometimes called the pejorative hummer) with composer.
    The composer use the melodies to compose.
    The confusion comes I think because the composers writes the melodies most of the times too.
    Almost all the fugues by Bach,for example,where composed with themes writtenned by other people.
    Miklos Rosza composed Ivanhoe using
    melodic fragments from the 12th century,
    and the latin himn Reis Glorias by the troubadour (Or song writer) Guiraut de Bornth (1220).
    Composing is not write tunes but how to use it,what will be the form of the composition etc.
    Mozart once said:
    "I'd finished the simphony but I don't have the themes yet"


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    posted 08-03-2000 08:28 PM PT (US)     
     

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