What do you reckon on this then people?...

gonna be good!

Elfman just doesn't work for this kind of movie.

Another good oportunity for a remarkable score lost...

Now that X-MEN has become the first successful film adaptation of a Marvel property, of course there's going to be a lot of buzz about SPIDER-MAN and the alleged FANTASTIC FOUR (Marvel managed to have the cheap version from several years ago suppressed once it looked like there was MAJOR-budget Hollywood interest.)

SPIDER-MAN is to Marvel what BATMAN is to DC -- the company's most emblematic hero, and one that would be so easy to do right, and so easy to do wrong. If Sam Raimi got the job of directing, as has been suggested many times, well, we could do a lot worse.

They should only hire me to write AND direct ... but let's not get ahead of ourselves (by the time they'd even consider me, I'm sure we'll be up to SPIDER-MAN 2 at the very least.)

--Kyp

Anyway, I wish someone like McNeely or James Newton Howard or even David Arnold would do the score. I just don't know about Elfmann, his style is starting to get to me.

Scott

I have a feeling this is still early days yet.

quote:

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Originally posted by Hard Target:
Silence!! Andre' Silence. Danny Elfman is perfect for this project especially since Sam Raimi is directing it.

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Sorry Hard, I won't stop saying what I think.

And I'm glad Raimi will direct it. Lets only hope he calls for Joe LoDuca, his constant collaborator.

LoDuca is a REAL talented composer, perfect for this kind of movie.

Cheers!

Dawk

Correction: Fox didn't choose Kamen over Ottman. Ottman backed out of the project by choice, due to his heavy involvement in Urban Legends 2: The Final Cut. They *did* choose Kamen over Jones (obviously), which, I sure would have still been an ideal choice (Jones). But, talking about this really has no relevance, simply because we now have a fine score by Kamen which serves the film excellently. Some may disagree, but the masses are tending to lean toward this conclusion.

As for Trevor, well, I'm a huge Jones fan... and am looking forward to his next big project, "From Hell" scheduled for 2001.

Jeron

Dawk

Even Basil Poledouris would be an interesting composer for this project. Think how unique and cretive a possibility would be to create something to match visuals created by one of the best loved comic book characters in existence. As a director/producer, the best idea is to stem from that and get somebody who could do well to make an exciting score from what could be a greatly entertaining movie.

quote:

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Originally posted by Widescreen:
Just because Elfman scored Batman, should he score every Super-Hero film?

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Don't get me wrong, I love the score for the first Batman movie. It was unexpected for it's time, and crafted pretty well. I thought Batman Returns was depressing and too light on the action, epic sound, or whatever it was that made the first one work. I didn't care for the sequel much either. I bought the cd and keep it for all the versions of the Batman theme, and anything to do with Catwoman on the prowl.

Besides- it was hot on the heels of Edward Scissorhands- and that was a depressing score, too. Batman Returns was actually, all the way over, Movie, Score, etc.- essentially Edward Scissorhands II. Hardly a style worth patterning a superhero after.

But that's a high horse I should definitely NOT get on. I've argued this before- and there's no point to doing so.

I've been impressed a lot more with Elfman lately- Men In Black, Sleepy Hollow. I thought he was really creative with Mission: Impossible.

In fact I just can't stand any Elfman's score for fantasy/horror movies, being "Sleepy Hollow" the last of his unberable bombastic exagerated amount of amateurish orchestral noise that just helped to sink the ridiculous movie even more.

Don't take me wrong (like many Elfnazys use to do around here). I can apreciate a good score from mr. Elfman, being my favorites "Midnight Run", the SONGS from "Nightmare Before Christmas", "Sommersby", "Instinct", "Good Will Hunting" and some parts from "Mission: Impossible" (as heard in the movie).

He's just not right for fantasy movies. Just notice how Shore's "Ed Wood", writen in the same vein, is SO MUCH better, inventive and original than any of Elfman's mediocre efforts on that genre...

the world really IS ending! (Hear those horsemen, Christopher? Clippety-clop!)

Hey, I halfway agree with you about Elfman for the rest of his scores- but I personally look at the score without comparison to something else because I enjoyed each of them in and of themselves. I don't think Sleepy Hollow was as noisy as all that, and M:I and MIB were just plain cool. Whether or not he was ripping off Lalo Schifrin in either case is arguable. And as for Batman, well, that's always going to have a special place in my heart like Superman because it belongs to entertainment device that hearkens back to my childhood. No matter how mediocre it may seem, it still entertains in some cases, to me. I can't always listen to Elfman to be honest. But I don't listen to just one composer for the very definition of variety, as it is the spice of life. However, just because Batman sounds like something else, that doesn't seem like enough justification for determining that it was mediocre. It's your opinion, believe me I NEVER begrudge anyone that- but if you were to try convince me that Batman was mediocre, it would need to be a better reason than that. I won't attack anyone for their opinion, but I need some irrefutable proof I can agree with. If you were to ask me if I thought Batman was one of the greatest scores of all time- like you, I've grown up since I first bought the score. So since time has passed and I've aged some, I'd have to give way to maturity and objectivity. I'd say it ranks in a list fairly high- but it is not the greatest score of all time. I can't say what score would be for everybody- I can only say what my favorite score will always be in my estimation and personal edification.

Nonetheless, everyone has their own opinions as to who writes good music and who doesn't. That's life...That's what makes forums like this one so interesting...

So drink your beer.

Tim (anxiously waiting for my "hasn't posted much" status to go away...)

P.S. - I'd like to hear what problems you have with Elfman. I'm just curious. Myself, I'm a big Elfman fan- his music has been quite an influence on me- even to this day.

My problems with Elfman started really with Batman Returns. Of course, I have several problems with that movie that could've been fixed if someone had taken the time to head the script off at the pass- but that's another topic in and of itself. The score was a disappointment against the high regard I held for the first film's score. Musically, I couldn't fault him, if we're talkikng about musician technique. However, if we're talking listening enjoyment, it's more my psychology than his indiosyncracy. I thought the tracks involving Selina Kyle's theme as opposed to Catwoman's were depressing sounding Christmas based carnival ride type music- and I don't like that kind of sound. Every thing with Penguin's theme were languid and sad and again- DEPRESSING. I can't listen to depressing music on a repetitive basis. Even a depressing moment in the first film with the reflection of the death of Bruce Wayne's parents was handled with better music- simple and passionate. Not overbearing.

Okay, that's the first part. Secondly, up until Mission: Impossible, many of his scores were the same sad sounding material, no matter the genre. I heard most of them and found they were much the same, whether Black Beauty, Edward Scissorhands, Delores Caiborne, Article 99, Extreme Measures... a lot of them weren't clever and after Batman, I wanted more of something clever. Something different. It's the same longing I now feel for Horner, and the same regard. I don't hate those composers' work as a whole. In fact, as one of my previous posts suggests, I really like a lot of the work by Elfman. As long as it's more like Batman, MIB, Mission: Impossible, Sleepy Hollow...

Now again, it's primarily my psychology that a sad sounding score is unlistenable- I typically don't lke to blame a composer for that, that's usually the demand of a composer. And we're talking about the scores outside of their marriage to the visuals many times. I can't say, with the exception to Batman Returns, that the music cheated the experience. An old hollywood proverb: If someone walks out of your movie, saying how much they hated the movie but liked the music score- then your movie was badly made. The reverse is true: If a good movie (or bad) has a louzy music score, then the movie might escape ridicule of it's entertainment value. In any case, a movie's success has no guarantee, nor does a score in terms of record sales. It's hard to say that one thing doesn't have enough of the other- because this is subjective opinion. Objectively, Elfman's a good composer, he works often, so it's no surprise that his peers have come to think so in the filmmaking community.

I still think Beetlejuice is a fun score to listen to- but certain tracks stick out more than others- and I judge the score by how much I like the theme, how I can listen to the whole CD and enjoy every track straight through without skipping, and even before buying the score, did I even like the movie enough to buy it.

Little ironic fact: I still own the score to Batman Returns. Simply because there were a few, not many, but a few redeeming parts. Example "Batman Vs. the Circus", "Sore Spots", "Birth of A Penguin, Part 2, (Main Title Music)". And because I was a big Batfan.

That's as fair as I can make. I don't hate Elfman, I'm just not as big a fan as you.

Now get me talking about Jerry Goldsmith, and I'll feel differently.

How about Filet Mignon to go with that beer?

MUSIC COMPOSERS CAN BE INFLUENCED BY THE WORK OF OTHERS!!!!!!!!!!!

My God (I hope He doesn't look like the Funfa-King - it would be disgusting!) I was blind and now I can see...
Altought I never had problem to distinguish influence from shameless rip-off. Go figure...

P.S.:
*Funfa-Funfa = first two notes of the "Beetlejosta" main theme:

FUNFA FUNFA FUNFA FUNFA FUNFA FÚNFA
FUNFA FUNFA FUNFA FUNFA FUNFA FÚNFA
FI FI FÍ FI FI FÍ -
PA PA PA PI PI PI - PIRIRIRIRIRIRIRIRIRIRIRI
FRIM-FRIM..."
and so on...

Yeah.... Don't mess with me. I am mad!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by André Lux:

But them I grew up and realized the score is nothing more than a bunch of cliche and a pastiche of other people's works, most notable the Batman Theme riped-off from William's "The Fury" and Young's "Hellbound: Hellraiser II".

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Hrmmm,
Once again, somebody acuses one composer for ripping off another. Can we please get off that lame attitude? John Williams' "Star Wars" was a direct rip-off of Holts' "The Planets" but nobody ever harps on that. I'm sure even Mozart himself used direct variations of other composers work in his stuff. Musicaly, people have been borrowing ideas from each other throughout history, and it is constantly being critqued as being unoriginal. Please. It is VERY hard not to be cliche'. I've been outlining a fantasy novel since Highschool and already somebody is using the exact same title as the book...and I had that tile in mind since I was a freshman like 12 years ago. Grrrrrrr

On the subject of Elfman and Spiderman...I have mixed feelings on this. While I do like Elfman's work alot, and have always been a big fan of his, I don't want it to sound like a Batman goth-fest...all dark and dreary. Spiderman is a light-harted sarcastic charcater that jumps from rooftop to rooftop....well that was always my childhood impression of him. I never read the comic that much, hehe.

I just don't want yet another "darker" comic book adaption. We need another light-hearted Superman type movie.

My personal opinion is that Jerry Goldsmith would have been perfect for it. I loved what he did with "The Shadow."

NP - Ghost and the Darkness by Goldsmith

quote:

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Originally posted by AaronR1074:
Can we please get off that lame attitude? John Williams' "Star Wars" was a direct rip-off of Holts' "The Planets" but nobody ever harps on that.

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Hummmm... In other words: don't mess with Danny Elfman, my sacred hero...

I think no one talk about Holst INFLUENCE over Williams because it's pretty obvious.
But you know, one thing is influence - or homage, you preffer - another is rip-off.

Like, lets say... Bill Conti comenting his shameless use of "The Planets" on "The Right Stuff": "No, no no! It's not even similar! Just because I composed a (higly original) march everybody acuses me of stealing from Holst!!"

LOL...

What I find amusing, and perhaps a little more disquieting, is the volume of film composers who basically borrow just from OTHER FILM COMPOSERS. When Goldsmith invoked Wagner and Strauss in THE BOYS FROM BRAZIL, it was witty, and probably completely over the head of most listeners. Now when I see a direct-to-video piece of crap that steals its main title almost note-for-note from Zimmer's POINT OF NO RETURN -- this kind of cannibalism is not a little bit eerie to me. In the same way that Roland Emmerich's pictures are knockoffs of earlier, better genre pieces (just look at, or perhaps don't look at, his bizarre and embarrassing Spielberg/Lucas pastiche MAKING CONTACT), a LOT of the younger composers -- I think in particular of the insane repetition of the Media Ventures drones, although I HAVE liked some of their music, especially FACE/OFF -- are just imitating what Zimmer helped pioneer. I remember when Michael Kamen and David Sanborn's score for FAIR GAME was thrown out in favor of one by the relatively untried Mark Mancina. I watched the main title on video and thought "The Zimmer sound is the standard now, huh?" I saw it coming as early as BLACK RAIN, but never dreamed it would gain such prominence (nor did I imagine Zimmer would create Media Ventures, although I think his intentions were decent -- he was getting more job offers than he could juggle, and wanted to give his more obscure friends some work and exposure.) Even my father, who barely paid attention to film music, noticed the Zimmer similarity in FAIR GAME (I then had to explain who Mancina was and why this must have happened.)

The Media Ventures pups are, to a large degree, caught within the rules and boundaries of the "house style" -- almost always, they're called upon to do something similar to what came before, which is why any given cue from THE ROCK is interchangeable, to me, with any given cue from ARMAGEDDON or (fill in the blank). This filters down to any number of less privileged composers, who are constantly being asked to do a score "like (fill in the blank), because (fill in the blank) was a big hit." Hollywood is a deeply superstitious place; probably there is more "magical thinking" going on there than in any other industry driven by such big money, perhaps because the nature of "what makes a hit" is so often intangible. No one could have dreamed that THE SIXTH SENSE would crack the top ten moneymakers of all time, and we're going to suffer years' worth of knockoffs as a consequence, just as the 1980s was plagued by wretched Spielberg/Lucas knockoffs (some of them were good, true, but the market was already glutted by 1985. Spielberg exacerbated the situation by producing or executive-producing a number of pictures that were weak imitations of things he'd already directed, and done better with -- although this was partly a symptom of his confusion as a director in the mid-and-late eighties, reaching its grotesque culmination with the nearly unwatchable HOOK.)

At present, there's only a small handful of composers really doing interesting and original work, and as a consequence, a lot of em aren't getting jobs ... it's depressing, for example, that Christopher Young has taken so long to break through, when James Horner was able to hit the stratosphere in less than five years of his early career. A lot of this has to do with luck, to be sure (the more mediocre of the Media Ventures composers are certainly rolling in it right now), but there are so many other factors.

I think we've had this debate before: if Bernard Herrmann were starting out now, he'd have a hell of a time gaining a toehold in the Hollywood of today. He would have been too distinctive for his own good. On the other hand, the eccentrically singular Carter Burwell is working more than ever, which is a heartening sign (of course, he's seen as "cool" because of the many quirky pictures he's done that benefit from his style -- although he can also write more classically, as with the gorgeous ROB ROY -- which is a score still dominated by his unique melodic style. You'll never mistake a Burwell score for one written by someone else, and that's rare in Hollywood now.)

Andre, I´m sure you like to think that John Williams is the almighty God of film composers and therefore Elfman just couldn´t help "ripping-off" his score to The Fury in Batman. Frankly, I´m getting pretty sick of that comparison...those who make it, only further demonstrates their complete lack of knowledge in the film music area.
Have you ever listened to Herrmann´s Journey to the Center of the Earth???

Please, stop with that The Fury thing...it´s pathetic.

SFT

quote:

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Originally posted by SFT:
Andre, I´m sure you like to think that John Williams is the almighty God of film composers and therefore Elfman just couldn´t help "ripping-off" his score to The Fury in Batman.

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These Elfmaniac is touchy, isn't he??

Just a quick cool side note:
Jerry Goldsmith and Ennio Morricone are the almighty Gods of film composers.
Willams used to be...

N.P.: "Hellbound: Hellraiser II" (Young) - Geez! The Main Theme of this score is a complete rip-off from Elfman's "Batman", and the most impressive thing is that it was composed BEFORE "Batman"!!!

Jeron

NP- An American Tail by James Horner (*****/*****) - "Somewhere Out There" - What can I say? It's a good song! Heck, it's a great score!

Not a great score, but this is one of those rare instances where I don't blame the composer too much. The film has absolutely no clear character focus, and there was no way for Elfman to really develop--let alone incorporate--the Batman theme when Batman is pretty much nonexistent. A horrible film with a mediocre score.

I have to second your argument for Carter Burwell. His is a truly unique and individual voice. He can write such melodious music for a small ensemble as in Gods and Monsters, great atmospheric stuff like Two Bits, or an all-out assault like parts of Conspiracy Theory (at least the liner notes indicate this--the size man!)
Have you heard It Could Happen to You in the film? gorgeous!!! thought about getting the CD today, but declined: only 2 score cuts, didn't know how much time-wise was on it.

Andre already bashing Elfman for his future spidey score? naaaahh, never believe that one in a million years!!

NOTE TO THE MASSES:
If you abhor the general idea of rip-offs and the like, you probably shouldn't BE a film music fan in the first place.