Jeff

I think it's good you made this post, but, as they say: the proof is in the pudding.

Jeron

All in a day's work, right?

I won't preach to you about responsibility here. Everyone knows what responsibility is, some just learn the hard way. Because you've taken it upon yourself to make good here in the MovieMusic community, you are showing to me and others that this time you mean it.

If you don't follow through after this, let's just say there will be a lot of music playing from a certain expanded, newly-released album of shark movie as the people you've wronged come hunting.

I expected you never to post again here, but now that you have, I look forward to a lot of reconciliation among members. Unlike Jeron, I see this as a needed attempt to make good. Make good, Jeff, or I will be playing that certain kind of music, too.

PeterK

Peter, I'm 19. I'm still learning responsibility myself... but I think I have a fairly firm grasp on the concept.

Jeff has completed the last couple trades we've done, so my faith in *OUR* trading relationship has been pretty much restored. I'm just sorry I can't say the rest for everyone else.

Let's get it together, Jeff. I know you're trying your best... Just remember that people are depending on you.

Jeron

Why do you suppose he apologized in the first place? Does he need this kind of attitude?

There is a difference between ignoring the past and re-living it. I deal with children every (my nephews and nieces) day and they make mistakes all the time. When they say they are sorry I tell them "okay, I still love you. Just don't do it again."

I just thank the heaven we don't have a God who beats us up everytime we do wrong. All he does is forgive, forget and empowers us to not do it again.

Yes, I am dissapointed in the reaction some of us gave this guy. It was immature, completely unnessasary and unforgiving. In fact, Jeff had more class in apologizing than we had in accepting it.

Scott

My post was all about the future....

PeterK

you wrote:

Drifter:While your impending anger does not disturb me in the slightest, Scott, your naivete does amuse me.

Scott: Glad you are amused.

Drifter: Apparently you've been fortunate enough to have never run across a particular kind of low-down snake. (Either that, or you have, and you just never faced up to what really happened.)

Scott: Big assumptions on your part. You have no idea. You are so way off, I can't even see anymore.

Drifter:Now I have no idea what the case is re TNFSS, and I think I've been clear about that

Scott: Very true.

Drifter: Until then, you gotta know that people here have every right to express suspicion and frustration, especially when he brings the subject up himself.

Scott: Never argued otherwise.

Drifter: It is You who oughta be ashamed of yourself, for implying otherwise.

Scott[/b}: Suggestion: [b]Read. I never claimed people didn't have the right to voice their opinion. I am not ashamed. I believe people deserve chances. I believe human beings make mistakes all the time (including myself). I believe someone apologizing means something. I believe God when he tells us to forgive; even if it means to forgive your brother seven times seven. So if I have the choice between being ashamed because of what you sir tell me versus what the Lord Jesus Christ says, well...I would be a fool being ashamed because you tell me to.

DrifterForgiveness has its proper time. Serving it up prematurely is irresponsible, and insincere to boot.

Scott: Forgiveness has its proper time...perhaps. So I guess I am now irresponsible and insincere? Sir, you don't have the slightest clue who I am and what I stand for. I voice my opinions as everyone else does. I do not have to cloud behind made up names, lies and deceptions. What you see me posting at this board is all Scott and nothing else. You can like it, hate it, be amused by it or ignore it.

I'm outta here. Bye, it was fun while it lasted.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scott (edited 12 July 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Scott (edited 12 July 2000).]

PeterK, Johns is a good example of one person posting under 8 different names. Look him up. Maybe not 8, but at least 2 or 3.

Shaun

Re: Getting CDs in return
You had your chance. The first time. You told me over and over again that you sent them, you sent them, but if you did, where are they? I realize that postal error can be a factor, but this isn't an isolated incident. If I had the CDs that I wanted originally (and I got all three in other trades during the time I was "waiting" for your phantom discs to arrive), I wouldn't be talking about it now. We'd be even. But, you couldn't have it that way. Now I'd rather bitch about it, as there's nothing you have that I don't already have from honest trades. "You send first" is something you must love saying. A friend of mine had to call you out on his website for you to finally send the CDs you owed him for so long. So, Scott----this kind of thing has happened before, and will likely happen again.

If you want me to post all the info I got on you, Jeff (it's been posted at probably every forum around the net, so doing a simple search is all I'd have to do to), so be it. I'm just saying quit screwing people over. You've earned yourself this reputation. In the two years I've been trading with people, I've only met 3 people who've screwed me over in some way. First was you, so you're the one I hold dear to my heart. Second was a guy whose name I can't remember (he told me he had these extremely rare promos, I sent my stuff, and then with each CD I wanted, one-by-one, he told me "I lost it" or "I let my friend borrow it and HE lost it" or he sent me 10 tracks of a 25 track promo). Third also posts on this board, but he screwed me over in a different way. We traded and took a vow of secrecy. A week later, he's not only trading it away, but he's SELLING CDRs of the score I made him for upwards of $25!!! That's just not cool!

Anyway, I've said enough for one night,
Shaun

Scott: "Big assumptions on your part. You have no idea."
Me: Then why don't you enlighten me? You're not being very specific.

Scott: "Never argued otherwise. . .I never claimed people didn't have the right to voice their opinion"
Me: Rights?? Who said anything about Rights? Quit trying to gloss over the true issue, which is: you Are arguing that it's flat-out Wrong for people to voice Certain opinions and sentiments regarding this matter. You gotta know that does not sit well with me, and I've got no compunctions whatsoever about telling you so right here.

Scott: "I am now irresponsible and insincere?"
Me: Though you seem to be enjoying your attempt to put words in my mouth, that doesn't mean I'm going to indulge you. Instead, I shall Correct your attempt to distort my Actual meaning, which is: you are irresponsibly advocating a premature and insincere leniency. It's clear to me that you are doing this because you have some need to view youself to be a force for "niceness" in this world. In my judgment, this need is disorting your judgment.
I am not hampered by any such need. My priorites are not "niceness", but clarity and results. Though I don't cotton with all of what Jesus advocated, I also know he was no fool. He was not some namby-pamby hippie who walked the globe patting little kids on the head, like you seem to think. He was fiery, he was a warrior. Though he picked his battles like any good warrior, when he had reason to cut loose with a blast of wrath he sure as hell did it. He would have been in complete accord with the later Moslem maxim, "Trust in Allah, but tie your camel anyway."

Scott: "you don't have the slightest clue who I am and what I stand for."
Me: Oh, but I DO have the slightest clue; you see, I have the assertions you yourself have made. And I am using them to draw tentative conclusions about who you are and what you stand for.
I stand by my method, and my conclusions.

We have Mr. Plain and Mr. Scott now fighting over nothing. Shaun is going at John like he just got screwed a minute ago, which we know isn't true.

Let's just sit back and give Jeff his space to come clean. If you guys don't let him, I don't see why he would want to. Chill. CHILL. And Jeff, there's work that needs to be done!

PeterK

Hey PeterK! Why am I treating this like it was a minute ago? If everybody would have listened to myself and the others about Jeff Johns two years ago (yes!), none of this would be going on. If nobody wants to heed our warnings, then so be it. Just saving you guys the anger.

Shaun

I am trying to help restore the peace, not save from the anger. There is a difference. I know what you are getting at, but that's not the game right now.

PeterK

pretty much everything you said so far is way off base. I would love to continue this but I respect PeterK way too much to do so. So if you allow me to contact you via E-mail I'll be glad to finish this up.

Let me know...

Scott

PeterK

NP: THE OMEN (complete)

I have a pretty good list of who's who these days. Should we have a coming out party? Or perhaps even better, should I set up another forum? Any ideas on what it should be named? "I am not who you think I am..." or "I am a miserable failure at pretending..." ?

Who knows. It's late, I am tired. 'Night.

Jeron

Even DANIEL2 is not my REAL name -- that was yet another persona I invented, and you believed it all, you nincompoops! My real name is Bartholomew Conger IV, a distant cousin of Latham Conger III, whom some of you remember. But we no longer speak because he insists on liking that hack John Williams. I'm in the phone book. Call me. Tell me how much you hate me. Be certain that that is the first and only thing you say to me. I can't listen for longer than a simple, concise "I hate you!" for I loathe the sounds of people's voices, and will hang up. But I love getting the calls! I thrive on it. I don't get much attention because I never leave the house (there might be thieves out there, or pretty girls who would sneer at my freakish appearance -- trollops, all of them, ALL of them! -- and there's always people, accursed flocks of mindless, soulless people who cannot appreciate that there is nothing preferable to silence. I've looked into having myself rendered surgically deaf, but cannot find a doctor who will perform the job. The fools! Don't they realize what an effort it is for me to make the call in the first place -- to listen to their mewling, sickening voices, prattling about such preposterous abstractions as "ethics" and "laws!" Oh, the world, the damnable world! I can scarcely even bear the sound of my own worn fingertips on the keyboard! It is an agony, I assure you! And yet how else am I to tell the world how wrong you all are, and how thoroughly, inalienably right am I.)

NP (volume off, of course): That stomach-turning BAYWATCH is on. Have actresses no sense of morals anymore -- of decency? You can see almost everything -- nearly their entire bodies, they are almost naked, all over! Their entire bodies! Almost all of them! All the time! Nearly naked! Naked! Naked! But I must force myself to watch, in order to remind myself how horrid it all is! That's almost all women think about all the time, isn't it, how to be naked in public! I hate Seven of Nine on STAR TREK VOYAGER as well! Just because she's from space, she clearly believes she's "hot stuff!" Look at her shaking that intergalactic booty! It is beyond belief! At least those girls on FRIENDS mostly keep their clothes on! I keep watching, but have seen almost nothing! But you know what they must be thinking they wish they were doing -- ALL THE TIME! This planet is a cesspool! If I did not hate it so much, I would demand not to be a part of it! But I must remain -- SOMEONE who knows the truth MUST remain!

[This message has been edited by H Rocco (edited 14 July 2000).]

[This message has been edited by H Rocco (edited 14 July 2000).]

"I've looked into having myself rendered surgically deaf"

I'm going to be thinking of that quote all day! Thanks Rocco! That's twice in a half an hour that you've made me wet myself!

Shaun

NP---Squishy Drawers

I just wanted to report that Jeff completed a recent transaction with me. I received my trade the other day, and it was in tip-top condition, shipped first class, etc.

Jeff, if you'll keep this up with EVERYONE else, I think there is light at the end of the tunnel after all. Keep up the good work.

Jeron

However, as I recently said to Howard L, I am amazed by the number of people who discuss the manner in which I express myself, rather than the issues I actually raise.

I say things such as ‘I like Zimmer’……surely a perfectly acceptable point of view, and some accuse me of baiting Goldsmith fans.

I say things such as ‘I find Goldsmith’s score to RUDY disappointing’…..and some accuse me of hating all of his work, and even despising the composer on a personal level.

Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not complaining about this, I find all this conjecture about my motives rather amusing.

But, at the end of the day, though I admit to being very longwinded on occasion, there is surely no mistaking what my basic views are…..I do state my mind, with only the civilizing guidelines of the message board as upheld by the administrator, and my personal values of conduct, ameliorating the tone or manner of what I post. I should point out that no amount of ridicule, name-calling or dismissive remarks will prevent me from posting my opinions. However, if the message-board administrator feels that I am damaging the success of the message board, then I will happily moderate my postings.

This is not an invitation to PeterK to endorse my presence here at the message board; all I am saying is, if Peter thinks I am having a detrimental effect on the board and wishes me to leave or restrict my postings in some way, then I will respect the administrator’s request.

Now, when it comes to my postings, there seems to be a few major ‘bones of contention’.

1) Jerry Goldsmith – the man.

Firstly, I have no personal feelings about Jerry Goldsmith, the man. From what I have read, he seems like a decent enough chap, he is proud of his profession and is generous in his appreciation of fellow film composers…..however, it is his work that interests me……such personal matters as the length of his hair, though fascinating, are pretty much irrelevant as far as I’m concerned.

2) Jerry Goldsmith – his work.

Goldsmith is 29th on my list of favourite film composers. The majority of his work from the late 50s through to 1992, I believe to be of a very high quality, though the standard of most of his movies is rather disappointing. Interestingly, it is not that his movies have been cheaply made (though some are inevitably cheap-jack productions), for he has been sought after by some very high-profile producers and directors and most of his movies have been substantially budgeted and potentially ‘big box-office’. Through sheer bad luck, or poor choice of projects, or whatever, Goldsmith has been lumbered with a lot of potentially good movies that have failed to live up to expectations…..that’s ‘the Goldsmith Enigma’. Having said that, movies such as CHINATOWN, PLANET OF THE APES, and ALIEN are classics or near classics of cinema, but are very few in number.

Of course, not every score Goldsmith produced between the late 50s and 1992 was brilliant (in my opinion), and even during this long period of great creativity, some of his scores did not live up to expectations….but that is only natural, and overall Goldsmith maintained a remarkably high standard of film scoring during this long period.

However, with FOREVER YOUNG onwards, I have been very disappointed with Goldsmith’s output, and have registered this disappointment. I have found the bulk of Goldsmith’s post-MR BASEBALL work to be remarkably limited in its scope and even unmusical, and Goldsmith’s approach does tend to fly in the face of what I perceive to be CMS (contemporary musical sensibilities). Though Goldsmith’s 1999 releases have displayed a remarkable resurgence in Goldsmith’s creativity, each of the three movies released that year were in similar genres (ie action/fantasy/horror, that sort of thing), and not in the more adult-orientated genres of drama/thriller/comedy/romance etc. By unmusical I mean, music is a unique and very emotional experience, and I believe that the bulk of Goldsmith’s output during the 90s has come as close as anything to being devoid of expressiveness, of nuance, of irony, of warmth, of emotion, whilst also being particularly simplistic in its form, thematics, structure and orchestration.

Finally, regarding Goldsmith’s approach to film scoring, I strongly believe Goldsmith to be an extremely limited composer of popular or jazz styled music. For a film composer this is remarkable, and it is a tribute to Goldsmith’s abilities as a composer of symphonic/orchestral styled film scores that he has remained at the top of his profession for the duration of his career. However, most film composers are ‘champing at the bit’ to employ jazz and pop stylings to their scores, and most of today’s composers judge the required mix of jazz, symphonic, and pop stylings in their scores to near perfection. Paradoxically, Goldsmith seemed much more disposed towards applying pop and jazz stylings in his earlier scores than he is in today’s sophisticated, intelligent and mature cinema, where the skilled and appropriate application of the full range of musical styles, from jazz to symphonic, from Celtic to Latin, is not only vital to the success of the modern movie, but the opportunity to compose through the full range of styles is eagerly welcomed by the film composer. Goldsmith seems to resort to applying music that is not purely-symphonic only with the greatest of reluctance.

3) Every other film composer.

My favourite film composers are Max Steiner, Alfred Newman, James Horner, Hans Zimmer (and his school), John Williams, Danny Elfman, Dmitri Tiomkin, and so on. I believe that every major film composer has produced some fine film music.

4) CMS (contemporary musical sensibilities)

CMS is the appropriate application of music based on the nature of the movie in hand and on the current state of society’s musical sensibilities. Society’s contemporary musical sensibilities are unprecedentedly sophisticated, broad-minded and mature. In my opinion, virtually all of today’s successful film composers are excellent exponents of CMS……except for Jerry Goldsmith.

5) Soundtrack albums

I collect soundtrack albums, but rarely listen to them. I believe film music to be a completely different animal to music intended for stand-alone consumption, thus I think it unfair to judge film music in the same way one judges music intended for stand-alone consumption. Of course, a few soundtrack albums do make a good stand-alone listen (though there are only very, very few in my opinion). That said, I respect the fact that many people do gain an immense amount of satisfaction from listening to soundtrack albums, but to me, film music must serve the movie first…..indeed, a good album does not mean that the music works well as film score. By the same token, music that is virtually worthless away from the intended images can make superb film music. I believe that my appreciation of film scores (as heard in the movies, rather than on the album) is no less valid than the soundtrack enthusiast who does avidly listen to film score albums.

So, that’s a brief summary of where I stand on some of those contentious issues. I look forward to having the opportunity to expand on the above opinions in the future.

I think we need to re-read this post again, especially the name of the topic. Hint: it doesn't say "My name is Jeff, I ripped you off, so come on in and rag on me."

Please!

PeterK

Clay G.

Jeff?

PeterK