Unlike the nonthematic wallpaper that some claim is SPR (I don't however, GREAT score), he delivers an absolute knockout theme for this particular patriotic film, and someone still hates it, not that anyone has to LOVE it or anything.

Upon further hearings, I think this score has a lot in common with Empire of the Sun, which I think is an underrated Williams score (just not everyone's cup o' tea).

I'd be more inclined to call Earthquake the worst Williams score, musically. But, even that's so cheesy you gotta like it.

Np - Cosmic Voyage

quote:

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Originally posted by JJH:
great,

Unlike the nonthematic wallpaper that some claim is SPR (I don't however, GREAT score), he delivers an absolute knockout theme for this particular patriotic film, and someone still hates it, not that anyone has to LOVE it or anything.

Upon further hearings, I think this score has a lot in common with [b]Empire of the Sun, which I think is an underrated Williams score (just not everyone's cup o' tea).

I'd be more inclined to call Earthquake the worst Williams score, musically. But, even that's so cheesy you gotta like it.

Np - Cosmic Voyage

[/B]

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Does this reflect on popular approval of John Williams as a recognized name, or is The Patriot score really that good?

I would like to see a really good... I mean really good... academic look at which score is by far John Williams' best. I am not talking popularity here (the answer would be two or three obvious finalists), I am talking effectiveness in supporting the film, or even lifting the film too a much higher level of satisfaction for the viewer.

I like the discussion Howard L just started called "Assessing film music." It's a good beginning to a great discussion. However, in this thread, I'd like to see Mr. L's definitions of film scores applied to the work of John Williams.

What do you think? Granted, most movies scored by Williams come with a great theme, but a great theme does not make a movie great. But then, is that all there is to a Williams score? A couple of themes reworked again and again in a movie?

I found Seven Years in Tibet to be a great piece of music for the symphony, but for the film, all the score did was paint a pretty musical portrait of what was already wonderous onscreen: the beautiful aerial shots of the Tibetan mountain ranges.

On the other hand, Williams' score for Amistad hit much more meaningful notes, nearly every time music was heard. My favorite moments: The first is the Anthony Hopkins scene underscored by "The Long Road to Justice," when Matthew Mc's character was pleading for him to hear the case. The second was the African shot from the coastline, looking towards the prison of Lomboko as the thousands of slaves poured out, free at last ("The Liberation Of Lomboko").

Were there any uncomparable moments of image and music in The Patriot that will remain with you as the years go by?

PeterK

NP - "Romeo & Juliet" by Nino Rota

Granted, I haven't really listened to it in-depth yet, but what I've heard so far ranges from serviceable to mediocre, although the short violin motif that ties the score together (not really a theme) is quite nice. I caught a few references to Angela's Ashes, which is probably almost my favorite Williams score of the '90s.

Jens:
What exactly did you hate about TPM? Granted, the album release was an abomination, and the movie mediocre, but Williams' score sounded like a more complex, impressionistic take on the SW universe, particularly in the atonal yet melodic "Anakin's Theme." In all, TPM is near the top of my Williams list for the '90s, along with The Lost World and Schindler's List.

But I'll definitely be giving The Patriot several more spins in my player before passing final judgment on it.

My views of the score are highly biased by the CD, which is fabulous.

Over the top Americana theme? What wouldn't be over the top? Something by Aaron Copland?

In the film, the main theme, when cued, was superb every time. My second favorite aspect of the score is lonely trumpet solo. Williams seems to be only person who knows how to write for brass instrument these days.

To me Williams action music, while tending to be a bit samey from time to time, is nonetheless thrilling, even though this movie didn't have a whole lot of it.
The movie was appropriately scored, as always with Williams. It wasn't too thrilling in the movie, but once again I love the album.

BTW -- I thought the movie as excellent. Before you hang me for saying that though, hear me out.
The evil British general was a tad overdone, but he was involved in some very intense emotional scenes. I dont' take this as a serious movie, but more akin to a historical fiction novel. That's all it is. A story of good and evil set in the backdrop of the American Revolutionary War.
Hey, it's just a movie, after all.

I was however, repulsed by the obvious attempts at political correctness.

Isn't it funny?
Here we have a CD in basically same format as the TPM disc. Many people were put off by that one, and this comes along, and they love it (myself included).

and I must say, I loved the teaser trailer for Pearl Harbor. Visually, it looks inteestin. The pictures of the Japanese flying against the backdrop of Hawaii, as well as the pullback through the fleet of planes were awe-inspiring.
Unfortunately, this means another patchwork, compose by the numbers MusicVaporizers score.

I just love all the themes and motifs he created/re-used and all the complex forms they appear through the movie and the way they all correlate to each other.
And the action music are simple the best Williams ever composed: sweeping, vibrating, incredible original and breathtaking, being the highlight the "Battle of Hoth" sequence... MOST IMPRESSIVE!!!

And "Yoda's Theme"... Man... Nothing will ever match that gorgeous piece of music!

As for THE PHANTON MENACE... It's obviously a great score.
Indeed the album is one of the worst I've ever seem, but in the movie it's fantastic!! William's best score of the 90's, followed close by SCHINDLER'S LIST.

Cheers!

André Lux

Why the comment about Hans Zimmer? (try listenting to Thin Red Line or Prince Of Egypt or Gladiator or try making an attempt in realizing that they're all different; lol, like Kendall saying he can't tell any of Zimmer's scores apart, and yes Zimmer has admitted that alot of the scores that came out of Media Ventures sounded like carbon copies of his own work) I think he'll do a phucking good job with Pearl Harbor.

NP: Les Misérables (Basil Poledouris) *****/*****

he'll do great if he writes something like Thin Red Line, the only Zimmer I adore.

But alas, unless he pulls a Hornerism, 'taint likely.

Here's hoping Trevor "What the Hell does the Word Music mean?" Rabin doesn't get assigned.

\_/ <--have a drink

Shaun

NP---Not The Perfect Storm

Thats where I stand.

1. It's ridiculously overscored. There is so much unnecessary background music in the film that it almost feels like one of these old cheesy TV science fiction scores.
2. It is definitely not a 'Star Wars' score. Exept for a few quotations of the old themes there is NOTHING to remind us that this is a 'Star Wars' score. Instead of basing his new score on the original 'Star Wars' material, Williams simply rips off 'Hook', 'Far and Away', the last two Indiana Jones scores and Patrick Doyle's choral work from 'Dead Again' and 'Needful Things' (and in a totally overblown way). Oh yes, and I forgot 'Home Alone' for the Jar Jar Binks scenes and the end title from 'The Fury' for 'Duel of the Fates' (plus the Doyle chorus).
3. What was Williams thinking when writing that awful 'Duel of the Fates' cue? Yes, I know that Lucas forced him to use a chorus and stuff, but still... it made me laugh hard!

And André, let me assure you that I am in no way a 'Star Wars' hater. Recently I have been asked the same question over and over again by 'Episode One'-lovers: "How can you call yourself a 'Star Wars' fan and at the same time hate 'Episode One'?" And I always answer: "How can you possibly call yourself a 'Star Wars' fan and at the same time like 'Episode One'?" Exept for the title this is no 'Star Wars'. It's a shame people were so eager to enjoy this film simply because it was a 'Star Wars' film. They defend it because George Lucas can do no wrong - but he can, unfortunately he did it with the most anticipated film of the decade. George Lucas did a good job ruining what could have been a great continuation of a very profitable franchise. Gungans? Midichlorians? Bad writing, bad directing, bad editing, bad acting, etc. Perhaps the worst movie of 1999. Don't be fooled into thinking that Jar Jar was the only problem with this film. There are far too many things bad to list here. You might think that I am just a cranky curmudgeon who hates 'Star Wars'. Wrong! I loved the original three. In fact I saw this latest installment twice just to find out if I was missing something upon seeing it the first time. But, alas, it was just as bad upon viewing it a second time. Even the so -called "great" effects were terrible. In the original trilogy everything was used and old and realistic - in 'Episode One' all we have are highly polished and artificial looking spaceships. Once again I assure you that I am the biggest 'Star Wars' fan you can possibly imagine. I once felt proud of it. But when seeing 'The Phantom Menace' I felt ashamed to be a 'Star Wars' fan.

I can understand why Williams's score is so uninspired. I mean, what would you have written for this terrible piece of trash? If I had been Williams, I would have told Lucas to go to hell and take his piece of **** film with him!

NP: The Perfect Storm - Horner's best since Zorro.

"Bad music"?
Personally, I love it when someone with no proper musical background, other than having listened to a ton of CDs calls music "bad," implying it is poorly written, poorly organized, poorly orchestrated, poorly harmonized, and that Williams has no business writing.

If you don't like it fine, that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad music.

TPM may in fact BE ovescored. I don't know, but it works fine for me. All the unecessary underscore was present in RoTJ as well, but no one seems to complain about that do they?

TPM is very-well composed musically, despite the poor editing decisions and poor album that are what you seem to hate, my German friend. That unecessary underscore, like the scene where the Jedi meet the Gungans, ad Senate chambe, etc., to me, is just fascinating listening. There are so many things going on in the orchestra to help establish the mood.

well, that's just me. I'll defend the TPM score to my dying day. It's not THAT bad.

Anyway, I still like TPM even with all you boys and girls grunting over and over and over and over...

Loved this movie for the most part, one of the production exceptions being the score.

Williams, first, has proven himself capable of much better music. I wasn't moved very much at all by it. I listened to AIR FORCE ONE the following morning after seeing it, and thinking that, with a few minor differences, THE PATRIOT needed music more like that. The climax could have used more bombast (yes, more bombast from John Williams), and the score in general just could have used some more energy.

The music was appropriately story-centered, but could have used more in the way of unity.

Academically speaking, in response to PeterK's question, John Williams' best score is SAVING PRIVATE RYAN. It is the one score of his that should have won an Oscar for sure; Williams is still lucky in that case since Jerry Goldsmith was up for the award in the other score category that time. (MULAN was still my favorite score of '98.)

BTW, I never said that 'Phantom Menace' was "poorly organized", "poorly orchestrated" and poorly harmonized" ... I just said that it was poorly written (which it was indeed). And Williams still has business writing - just not for terrible crap movies by George Lucas. Grrr.

And André, I somehow expected the above reaction from you. Amazing. But once again: How can you possibly call yourself a 'Star Wars' fan and at the same time like 'Episode One'?

NP: The great Superman re-issue (by the guy I just bashed for doing 'Phantom Menace')

I have been looking forward to this film and score for a very long time. The film was "entertaining" and the score is "magnificent!"

John Williams has composed such a patriotic and emotional score. The themes are wonderful and the orchestration is perfect. I too love the the trumpet motif(very dark.) The action music is not as furious and complex as other JW scores, but it is still terrific.

THE PHANTOM MENACE

Jens,

I am gonna have to totally disagree with you. The Phantom Menace is complex and very interesting compositionally. When I associate with professors or major symphony orchestras, they rave about John Williams. His score to TPM is a great addition to the Star Wars trilogy. Williams is the master at re-working themes. In my opinion, no one can do it better. How many different settings and orchestrations have we heard the force theme reworked? MANY MANY TIMES! In my opinion this score was the best of 1999, closely followed by TITUS, SLEEPY HOLLOW, and ANGELAS ASHES.

I would love to hear more opinions!

Thanks,
Aaron Collins

NP: The Patriot(*****)

But regarding TPM, I have to agree with JJH and Aaron - the best score of 1999. As someone said, it IS overscored, but those passages are quite interesting as music, divorced from the film.
Personally, I wish Sony would release the TRUE complete score with all 160 minutes of music, a lot of which got chopped out of the film and left out of the soundtrack - I think we would all completely reevaluate it when taken as the piece Williams originally intended, not what Lucas butchered it into or what Kenn Wannberg did to it for the album. What we have now is like two cut versions of a Mahler symphony - it's as if the soundtrack album contains movements 1, 2, and part of 5, the movie contains 1, 3, and the other part of 5, but we're still missing movement four.

Jens: regarding your second point, I think Williams made it sound nothing like Star Wars because the film looked nothing like Star Wars. It should be exciting to listen to all six complete scores back to back, hearing how Williams gradually builds the unrelated TPM into the themes that we all know and love.

I still respect your opinion, though. Ich spreche Deutsch, aber nicht so gut. (How was that - did i sound like an idiot?)

quote:

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Originally posted by Andrew Drannon:

But regarding TPM, I have to agree with JJH and Aaron - the best score of 1999.

I still respect your opinion, though. Ich spreche Deutsch, aber nicht so gut. (How was that - did i sound like an idiot?)

---

Yes, you did sound like an idiot. Just kidding, of course.

But Phantom Menace the best score of 1999? Now YOU gotta be kidding me! Both The Mummy and 13th Warrior kicked TPM's ass last year!

quote:

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Originally posted by Jens Dietrich:

But Phantom Menace the best score of 1999? Now YOU gotta be kidding me! Both The Mummy and 13th Warrior kicked TPM's ass last year!

---

How could I forget about those? You're right - 13th Warrior was better than TPM.

you never appreciate my comments anyway.
I said "implied by" the term "bad music."
Re-read the post and think it over.
I, for instance, write bad music. John Williams doesn't.

TPM, on the whole, works for the movie, despite the cues being re-cut in all kinds of ways. The movie is hodge-podge, and in this fashion is VERY similar to RoTJ. Even the battles. They run exactly like those in RoTJ.

didn't Williams himself say that he didn't like the way his score was used in the movie?

Just to clarify: I didn't say TPM was the best of 1999. I reserve that for others, like Red Violin, Legend of 1900, Straight Story, and Titus.

As for the score heard in the film: that much of the orchestral detail heard on the CD is drowned out by sound effects in the movie makes arguements for its finesse irrelevant. What's more, when the music is discernable, it's to be heard grinding, aimlessly underneath torpid dialogue sequences, much like Zimmer's score to Gladiator, evidently for the sole purpose of keeping the audience awake with sonic friction.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jens Dietrich:
it's just bad music
1. It's ridiculously overscored. There is so much unnecessary background music in the film that it almost feels like one of these old cheesy TV science fiction scores.
2. It is definitely not a 'Star Wars' score. Instead of basing his new score on the original 'Star Wars' material, Williams simply rips...Patrick Doyle's choral work from 'Dead Again' and 'Needful Things' (and in a totally overblown way
3. What was Williams thinking when writing that awful 'Duel of the Fates' cue

I can understand why Williams's score is so uninspired. I mean, what would you have written for this terrible piece of trash
NP: The Perfect Storm - Horner's best since Zorro.

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Jens, Jens, Jens...Ich kann das ueberhaupt nicht glauben...

Okay, lets see...

TPM is just bad music. Cool. If TPM is bad music, then I thank the gods for it. I mean, if this is bad music, imagine when Williams actually writes good music, which I suppose he hasn't done yet considering the fact that on a technical standpoint TPM continues the amazing craftsmanship of one of our greatest composers. Wow. Jens, let me ask you this...what constitutes bad music in your mind. Music you don't like? Music badly scored on the technical standpoint? Music that doesn't fit the film?

To your first point:
My suggestion is you watch more cheesy TV science fiction movies for if you compare this score to those kind of scores, then you probably haven't seen any bad ones yet.

2.Wow, didn't know there was a scale determining what constitutes Star Wars music.

To compare Duel of the Fates with Patrick Doyle's music from Dead Again or Needful Things is to compare a Porsche to Horse. Stylistically, musically those works are so different and far apart that you have to be on drugs to even call one a rip off of another.

3. Well gosh, I just don't know. What was he thinking. Probably something like this: I better write music that is a bit understated. Not too many instruments and background noises. Instead of using human chourus, I better use animal gruntings and cow moohings. Hmmm, better change my style as well, can't sound anything like the other scores I have written...

I think Jens you hate the film so much you automatically detest the score as well. It's cool dude. You hate it, I love it. There are many scores I don't like, yet I never call them bad for I wish I could compose like the least of 'em.

Jens I know I was a bit sarcastic here, don't take it personal. It's just that all I have heard here so far are discussions about a score based on complains that it was too patriotic, another composer was originally suppose to write it, it was overhyped or sounded too much like other scores by the same composer. If this is all we can come up with when discussing a score then we are really not discussing the score but are merely reflecting our own disapointments concerning the circumstances.

Hey, I wish Williams would have scored Shadows of the Empire. Yet, he did not. McNeely did a great jobl though. Yes I was disapointed and could have said" OH well, Johnny should have done it and who knows what great work he did"

Let's try to judge the score by how it works in the film and from a listening standpoint only. If you still say it is bad...cool.

I have been talking and talking...am tired now. Will procede to listen to the Patriot for the (don't know how many)times...

Scott

Jens: "I don't have to imagine Williams writing good music. He has dome that often enough."

Scott: "Wow. Jens, let me ask you this... what constitutes bad music in your mind. Music you don't like? Music badly scored on the technical standpoint? Music that doesn't fit the film?"

Jens: "Music badly scored on the technical standpoint and music that doesn't fit the film. TPM was both. Duel of the Fates, for example, doesn't fit the film at all."

Scott: "Wow, didn't know there was a scale determining what constitutes Star Wars music."

Jens: "There IS a scale determining what constitutes Star Wars music: The original trilogy!"

Scott: "To compare Duel of the Fates with Patrick Doyle's music from Dead Again or Needful Things is to compare a Porsche to Horse. Stylistically, musically those works are so different and far apart that you have to be on drugs to even call one a rip off of another."

Jens: "It's not a direct rip off, but it is certainly the same ballpark."

Scott: "Probably something like this: I better write music that is a bit understated. Not too many instruments and background noises. Instead of using human chourus, I better use animal gruntings and cow moohings."

Jens: "You are obviously trying to be funny, but you don't succeed. It didn't say the score should be understated, I just said that it was waaaaay overblown."

Scott: "You hate it, I love it."

Jens: "Obviously."

Scott: "There are many scores I don't like, yet I never call them bad for I wish I could compose like the least of 'em."

Jens: "If a score is bad I call it bad. It's that simple."

Scott: "Jens I know I was a bit sarcastic here, don't take it personal."

Jens: "I never take such things personal. But if you were trying to be sarcastic you failed."

Scott: "Hey, I wish Williams would have scored Shadows of the Empire."

Jens: "Really? I wish McNeely would have scored Episode One!"

Scott: "McNeely did a great job though."

Jens: "Yes, indeed. Shadows of the Empire is far superior to Episode One."

Scott: "Let's try to judge the score by how it works in the film and from a listening standpoint only. If you still say it is bad...cool."

Jens: "Yes, I still think it's bad - both in the film and as a stand alone listening experience. And I am cool, indeed."

Scott: "I have been talking and talking...am tired now. Will procede to listen to the Patriot for the (don't know how many)times..."

Jens: "Yes. Me, too."

NP: The Patriot (by that great composer I just bashed)

quote:

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Originally posted by Jens Dietrich:
[B]And André, I somehow expected the above reaction from you. Amazing

---

What's amazing, Jens? The fact you expected the reaction I had or the fact I react the way you know you was seeking for?

Let me know, ok? I'm quite anxious.

quote:

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But once again: How can you possibly call yourself a 'Star Wars' fan and at the same time like 'Episode One'?

---

It's not possible, you know...
Everytime I call myself a 'Star Wars' fan while I still enjoy 'Episode One' I just melt!!
It's unbelievable!

But see with your own eyes:
- I AM A STAR WARS F.... *sglossssh*

N.P.: "Qui-Gon Melting End" from THE PHANTON MENACE (Williams)*****/*****

DjC, I could take issue with that remark but instead I'll simply state that anyone who spends as much time as you spouting off irrelevant gratuitous political remarks is not in any position to criticize another film music site.

sorry if I started anything....

TPM is GOOD, well written music. Sound effects, and "torpid" dialogue aside.

As far I can hear, it's basically been scored the same way as any other movie JW does. And as I said before, the same way as RoTJ, which nearly everyone, including myself, hails as an 80's masterpiece.

WHY does TPM matter SO much more to you people? It's not John Williams' he wrote a workable score. Lucas I'm sure specifies what he's looking for, and Williams obliges.

If Jerry Goldsmith had written the exact same music, would this such a polarizing debate? I think not, because some people here think Goldsmith never composed a bad note in his life.

I have no trouble with people not liking something. But to call something "bad" music is just horrendously ignorant.

Unnecessary music doesn't necessarily equal bad music.

JJ, showing his elitist side

Np -- King Kong, John Barry

quote:

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Originally posted by Howard L:
"Lets try not to have another FSM type site, which sucked because all they did was trash each other."

DjC, I could take issue with that remark but instead I'll simply state that anyone who spends as much time as you spouting off irrelevant gratuitous political remarks is not in any position to criticize another film music site.

Per this thread, particularly re PeterK's response, I'm a bit confused over what's being criticized by some respondents. Is Williams getting the thumbs up/down over his music as it relates to the film or on its own as a CD? Please make your p.o.v. clear! I'm still looking forward to seeing the darn thing & then adding my comments to the fray.

---

P.S. I have not once trashed anyone on this board, so i am free to say what I did.

Howard L, are you addressing me, suggesting my p.o.v. wasn't clear? I really don't have a pov at this point - can't say I've seen the film or heard the music enough to comment on it. I just noticed a nice division in comments about the score and asked for a really good discussion about what makes a John Williams score so great. Just a theme?

PeterK

First...The Patriot was ok. Not as good as Glory or Last of the Mohicans but good. Great effects. Some decent acting. And a few very moving scenes. But to me those scenes were ruined by the stupid ones. Like the dogs liking Mel's character more then the British guy(his name escapes me). Or the stupid ignorant white cracker that kept giving the slave a bad time and then the slave saving his life...comon. And last(I think) was the eldest son. He was just a bit to patriotic. He kept rambling on about 'the cause' like a Chris Claremont character in comics. I just wanted to smack him and tell him to shut the hell up.

The good about the movie was the first ambush scene with Mel and the kids. Very very powerful. All of the fight scenes were top notch and the scenes between the two British guys were good(a bad sign when you can't rember characters names.....am i too old?)

Second.....the score. I am very pleased with it. The main theme is beautiful and sweeping and the flutes actually sound cool. The rest of the score also very enjoyable..not as good as the main theme but good. It hasnt left my CD changer yet.

Thirdly......Williams and themes. We all LOVE Empire Strikes Back so much becuase it is loaded with one cool theme after another. The Imperial March. Yoda's Theme. Lando/Cloud City Theme. Boba Fett's Theme. Han Solo and the Princess. Hyperspace and the Asteroid field as well. Plus every thing from the original Star Wars. They just keep coming. That is what makes Empire (and the other three Star Wars albums) so amazing and stand out from other SoundTracks. Other soundtracks Williams has done have great themes for a main character or whatever and the rest is just mood...nothing bad...but it just there to give you that extra emotional tug. That is how I felt about 7 Years in Tibet. Fantastic Main Theme....but the rest was just there. I'm not saying I didn't like it but it just didn't soar and flow like that Main Theme. The Patriot feels like one of theses Scores....great main theme and then a bunch of good tracks with their moments.

ok dave shut up now no one cares

dave

NP : THE PERFECT STORM

quote:

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Originally posted by JJH:
Okay guys,

I have no trouble with people not liking something. But to call something "bad" music is just horrendously ignorant.

Unnecessary music doesn't necessarily equal bad music.

My sentiments exactly.

Scott

[/B]

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