Apart from the fact that Jerry Goldsmith is a proficient film composer, I believe the main reason for his popularity amongst soundtrack fans to be the type of films Goldsmith has been most commonly connected with, and has proved to be most accomplished at scoring.

Goldsmith’s chief area of success has been in scoring the science fiction, fantasy and horror genres, and these are just the genres that attract a hard-core, intense and fervent ‘fan base’ (the minority of society), as opposed to the casual movie-goer’s interest that most other genres attract (the majority of society). It isn’t that science fiction is any more popular a genre, in terms of box office, than say the thriller or romantic comedy, it is just that historically, the science fiction fan has leaned heavily towards eccentricity and fervent obsession with movies such as STAR WARS, and especially STAR TREK …..just look at the eccentric nature of many Star Trek fans who make the STAR TREK universe the focus of their existence, sometimes because life offers them little else (they may be lonely or have failed in life or are unable to interact socially with other people). And, it is surely no coincidence that many Jerry Goldsmith fans are also Star Trek fans. So, in many ways, Goldsmith’s bent toward scoring science fiction movies (usually very well), has proved a steppingstone to, and conduit through which many sci-fi fans have learnt to appreciate not only his sci-fi music, but also, in the course of time, the bulk of his movie-scoring output.

To put it another way, in my opinion Goldsmith doesn’t simply have a popular soundtrack fan following because of movies like CHINATOWN or PAPILLON or LA CONFIDENTIAL. Goldsmith is popular amongst soundtrack fans because of fantasy movies like Star Trek, and the sort of obsessive fan that sci-fi movies, historically speaking, attract. It is only natural that the fan of the music composed for Star Trek, then looks to discover what else the composer of the music to their favourite movies has done, and then learns to appreciate the comparatively few successful non-horror/fantasy/sci-fi movies that Goldsmith has done.

Much as I admire Goldsmith, it must be said that he is one of the very few film composers working today who is ‘limited’ to scoring (successfully) only a small number of genres, such as sci-fi and horror and fantasy. Goldsmith may work in other genres, but his apparent lack of CMS ability, makes his non-horror/fantasy/sci-fi film scores rather less successful than his work in his favoured genres. To expand on this, Goldsmith’s ability to understand and musically interpret the agenda of a movie is second to none, but, in my opinion, his stylistic limitations as a composer of music, particularly popular styles and orchestral subtlety, does handicap his effectiveness when scoring such genres as drama, comedy, urban thrillers etc (rather like a great theorist who is unable to effectively execute his artistry); and, historically, these are just the sort of ‘acceptable’ genres that have appealed more to the non-obsessive casual member of the cinema-going public (the majority of society).

The movie genres that Goldsmith favours, such as sci-fi, naturally attract the rather more eccentric, and obsessive, elements of society, including soundtrack fans. You see, the sci-fi/fantasy/horror genres allows Goldsmith to compose the sort of music he does best, broad and thematically straightforward orchestral works with some dissonance, but often with little fluidity or smoothness….music that dominates and puntuates rather than blends and sets the mood of the picture. Comedy, romantic/urban drama, and the urban thriller and other ‘adult-orientated’ genres, are less suited to Goldsmith’s compositional style….such movies require more subtle and complex orchestral textures and ideas, and often the incorporation of jazz and popular musical stylings and instrumentation that Goldsmith is far less comfortable with.

Goldsmith is still producing fine scores (like his three 1999 releases), but they are only to be found in certain genres, and, unlike virtually every other successfully-CMS film composer working today, Goldsmith seems unwilling to apply the full range of musical styles to his film scores, hence his increasing restriction to the genres of sci-fi, horror and fantasy. His apparent unwillingness to apply the full range of musical styles to his movies is a separate issue to any question of his abilities as a fully versatile composer, however, in my opinion, there has been a tangible decline in the quality of Goldsmith’s compositions for film during the 90’s, though that is not to say that all of his 90s work was without some merit, pre-1992 Goldsmith was a formidable film-composing force, thus, any decline in output during the 90s is akin to a golfer averaging level par per round, rather than regularly scoring 5 under par as he used to. Goldsmith may still be knocking in a few birdies, but the bogies have crept into his game also. For instance, though Goldsmith has composed little other than orchestrally-orientated scores during the 90s, many other composers’ orchestrally-orientated film scores, such as Yared’s ENGLISH PATIENT (to extend the golfing analogy, a hole-in-one), display far greater thematic depth and compositional subtlety and complexity. Goldsmith’s 90s work, cue by cue, has, in my opinion, tended towards extremes of loud bombast, and quiet, almost unnoticeable periods of scoring….with little blurring and detail (such as intimate solo passages, unresolved musical ideas, or ambience) in between.

To me, the 90s have seen Hollywood return to the exciting, pure entertainment value of 30s and 40s cinema, with the added bonus of 90s characteristics such as broadmindedness, intelligence, maturity, sophistication and tolerance (political correctness). It is a little disappointing that the 90s work of a composer with Goldsmith’s undoubted potential, has lacked the versatility and authenticity of Horner and Williams, the complexity and densely orchestrated depth of Zimmer and Elfman, and the generally successful application of CMS (contemporary musical sensibilities) of all of the aforementioned, Burwell, Doyle and upwards of fifty other successful contemporary film composers. To me, Goldsmith’s 90s work has been efficient, rather than inspired.

Getting back to Goldsmith’s popularity amongst soundtrack fans, take the average Star Trek movie. Because Star Trek has a large and passionate fan base, almost every Star Trek movie opens big, and may have a successful second weekend also….however, box office receipts then fall off alarmingly, much more precipitously than the vast majority of movies (though THE HAUNTING (US 1999 movie ** score ****) proves to be an exception). The reason for this is clear. Anticipation for the latest Star Trek movie builds amongst its legions of loyal fans…..such is the fervour, most fans will go to see the object of their obsession within a week of opening, thus, after this initial box office boom, subsequent weeks tend to see only the stragglers entering the cinema to see a Star Trek movie, you know, those casual movie goers who may only have a casual interest in Star Trek.

Having said that, cinema, and society as a whole, has matured incredibly during the past decade. This broadmindedness, enlightenment, tolerance and intelligence that now pervades society, and society’s attitude towards movies, has meant the genres of science fiction, horror and fantasy are now just as acceptable, to even the ultra-conformist, as the historically ‘acceptable’ genres of sophisticated comedy, thriller and drama. Indeed, it is fascinating and refreshing to see today’s cinema produce more multi-genred movies than ever….these days it is frequently the case that movies combine drama, comedy, sci-fi, horror, action and thriller, etc etc etc, or at least more than one or two genres. This is further evidence of society’s, and cinema’s, further sophistication. However, Star Trek is an exception in my opinion, for it tends to perpetuate the old marginalization of sci-fi, and the perception of the majority of society that the sci-fi movie genre is the preserve of nerds, geeks, DANIEL2’s and eccentrics (the minority). On the other hand, the Star Wars universe appeals to ten or twenty times the number of people who follow Star Trek. Star Wars is popular with the vast majority of the cinema going public for it is acceptable sci-fi….Star Trek is popular only with a minority of the cinema-going public (though its fan-base is more intense).

And people fell in love with John Williams because of Cinderella Liberty, JFK or Born on the Fourth of July?

The same fantasy and adventure genres that you say brought Goldsmith to public attention did the same for Williams.

Jaws, Star Wars, Raiders, ET.

Likewise Bernard Herrmann, though highly regarded for his dramatic scores, is most affectionately remembered for his fantasy works.

The basis of your statements are neither reasons nor rationale, only effects.

When I started out with soundtracks, Star Wars is what got me hooked. (Hey look, it's that Sci-Fi genre again!) Williams was my favorite for quite a while until I discovered this guy named Jerry Goldsmith. As a person who doesn't own one of his Star Trek scores (yet), I have to disagree that Goldsmith is popular because of his fantasy films. I'm sure his Star Trek scores sell well, but are the Star Trek fans buying his scores because they like Jerry Goldsmith or because they like Star Trek? I have a feeling that these people Star Trek fans, not Jerry Goldsmith fans.

My personal favorites by Mr. Goldsmith include his western scores. Why do I like them? It certainly isn't because of the movie, it's because of the guy behind the music. I have never seen a Jerry Goldsmith-scored western, and if I ever did watch one on TV, it would be because I wanted to hear the music.

Take a look at "Night Crossing." This doesn't fall under the "Daniel2 Goldsmith genre," but it is without a doubt one of my favorites. Is the soundtrack a hit among the general public? I'm sure that Intrada could tell you that it isn't. Is the movie a hit? Hmm, nope, I've never heard of it. How about "100 Rifles"? (which is NP, btw) I think Lukas Kendall said something like, "This is the most boring movie I've ever seen," but Goldsmith did a good job with it and created a score that is very enjoyable to listen to away from the movie.

I have to agree that his 90s music has been "efficient," since any person who has listened to a couple of Goldsmith scores from the 1990s has picked up on his various themes that become "recycled." For some reason, in Goldsmith's case, this does not annoy me. But, if you hand me a score by Mr. Horner, I can't stand it.

As for 'contemporary musical sensibilities', please recognize that Goldsmith is a man in his 70s. Of course the younger Elfman and Zimmer are going to do a better job at making "modern sounding music." Let me list a few items which I feel fit into the CMS idea:

• Deep Rising sounds like a ‘90s score to me.
  
• Capricorn One has "Kay's Theme," which sounds very ‘70s-ish.
  
• The Flint movies also sound like they fit in with the music of the day. (Specifically, listen to the "Boilermaker" cue)
  

I’m sure many Goldsmith fans would describe the scores you list as comprising some of the best music for film….as for the rest of humanity….

jonathan_little

I agree with an awful lot of what you say (right down to the fun ‘Boilermaker’ cue), but, as far as the Star Trek/Goldsmith relationship is concerned…I agree, not everyone has learnt to admire Goldsmith through his work on Star Trek…but I have a sneaking suspicion, judging by the number of Goldsmith fans who are also Star Trek fans, that many have, and then may have gone on to appreciate his works from other genres.

As far as Goldsmith’s age is concerned, well, John Williams (and others) isn’t too far behind him, and yet he (Williams) continues to represent the values of CMS with the greatest of success.

HAL 2000

Also, I missed seeing and meeting Mr G in Detroit where I also wanted to connect with the FSM gang (see my lament in the Detroit Dandies thread).

That thread proved the devotion to Goldsmith, the musician and the man, is UNMATCHED by any other composer. Mr G's depth, talent, genuine humanity and overall musical immersion stands in contrast to the current lot of trendy, Hollywood glitzed song peddlers who tend to predominate in a film industry growing increasingly juvenile...with exceptions.

Dan Hobgood at FSM says it all. Here is the link (follow link at beginning of article for add'l insights).

Have missed you all.
http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/articles/2000/20_Jun---Thoughts_on_the_Accessibility_of_Film_Music.asp

And you're saying Goldsmith's haven't been good. Goldsmith, if anything, surpasses Williams in this area for sheer imagination.

Seconds
Planet of the Apes
Logans Run
Capricorn One
Magic
The Omen Trilogy
Alien
Star Trek the Motion Picture
The Secret of NIHM
Poltergeist
Legend
Rambo Trilogy
Extreme Prejudice
Star Trek V
Lionheart
Total Recall
Innerspace
Gremlins
The Shadow
The Ghost and The Darkness
The Mummy
13th Warrior

All done in an extremely fertile and varied palette. But I guess according to CMS (whatever) it's all a load of mediocrity.

Your response is simplistic and broadly dismissive.

Who can say exactly? It's not as easy a question to answer as what makes Goldsmith so good/successful at what he does.

I don't think that Goldsmith is more beloved because of the "STAR TREK geek" notion.

Probably four out of every five of us likes Jerry Goldsmith and likes him the most because we first loved John Williams. I have to echo HAL's comments there.

But I think while at the same time Williams intrigued us about the art, and for a while we all probably slept next to our SUPERMAN tapes or LP's, once we discovered Goldsmith, perhaps through a score like CAPRICORN or STAR TREK, our interest turned into fascination.

It might not have taken place right away, but, rather, over a long period of time.

For me it was years after hearing Goldsmith's music before I really began to dig it on its own. Don't know why. I would claim the need to mature as a listener, purely to his music, I mean. Along with a film, Goldsmith's music has always been powerful and very enjoyable for me.

It seems to be very subjective to say something like Goldsmith's music is better than another's, but so many that seem to get into film music become a member of Goldsmith's legion. Certainly I did. I think HAL, for one, might say the same thing.

Jim (LG) might also note that this is his testimony.

I don't think any of us would consider Goldsmith to be as great as he is--to be the best--if it hadn't have been for the UNDER FIREs, RUSSIA HOUSEs, NIGHT CROSSINGs (!), HOOSIERSs, Westerns, etc., that came along the way.

I'll say this: No sci-fi score of Goldsmith's put me into that legion.

In fact, if it had not been for a couple of "jocks" and a bunch of tattooed, piercing-filled record store clerks (who by no means were snobby music fans), I would not love Goldsmith's music as I do now.

The love for the ALIENs and OMENs along the way came much later.

I love Goldsmith's music more than anyone else's for reasons, like I said, that I can't describe in any way that won't be criticized as a matter of taste.

But in terms of his scoring talent, experimentation, his music's versatility or originality, etc., I don't think that anyone has been as successful overall.

Perhaps the only way then to answer why Goldsmith is so popular is because he's so good/successful at what he's been doing for so long. Anyone who has noticed it at all has seemed to notice it big time.

But opinions are different, and I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't enjoy Goldsmith's music to have the same thoughts on the matter.

It’s good to hear from you again.

HAL 2000

When I said ‘Williams fantasy/sci-fi movies have actually been very good’, I was referring to the movies themselves, not necessarily the quality of the scoring. In general, the quality of Williams’ projects has been hugely superior to the quality of Goldsmith’s projects, however, the the gulf between the quality of Williams' and Goldsmith's scoring is significantly less. That may appear a simplistic and dismissive remark, but I believe it also happens to be the case.

Goldsmith is a good film composer who is sometimes great. Williams is a great film composer who is sometimes good.

Goldsmith’s projects are usually poor, but occasionally good. Williams’ projects are usually excellent, and seldom poor.

Here’s a few more observations –

1) Most people who are aware of John Williams’ music aren’t hardcore soundtrack fans, whilst most people who are aware of Jerry Goldsmith’s music are hardcore soundtrack fans.

2) The majority of society have heard of John Williams, whilst only a minority have heard of Jerry Goldsmith.

3) Despite (2) above, and because the majority of Goldsmith’s movies are fantasy-orientated (therefore appealing to a more fervent and eccentric fan-base), amongst soundtrack fans Goldsmith is just as popular as Williams.

4) Because a keen interest in sci-fi or a keen interest in soundtracks is eccentric, the obsessive sci-fi fan (mostly Star Trek) is also more likely to be a soundtrack fan, so in turn, is therefore more likely to be a fan of Goldsmith.

5) The admirer of Williams’ music is far more likely to be a casual movie-goer, whilst the admirer of Goldsmith’s music is far more likely to be a hardcore soundtrack fan.

6) There are probably as many people who have heard of Goldsmith (a small minority of society), as there are people who haven’t heard of Williams.

7) In my experience, Williams is considered by the casual filmgoer an ‘all-round’ film composer, Goldsmith is considered by the average filmgoer a ‘fantasy specialist’.

To further extend the golfing analogy I employed in my original post at this thread….these days, Horner is about 7 under, the Zimmer School are 6 under, Williams and Elfman are 5 under, Burwell, and about 50 other film composers are 2, 3 or 4 under, and Goldsmith is about even par. Beyond Goldsmith, Ira Newborn may be struggling at one or two over….but that’s about it.

Bulldog

I agree that Goldsmith has produced some fine work in genres outside of the fantasy/sci-fi bracket, but in recent years Goldsmith seems to have lost his willingness (or ability) to apply the full range of musical styles (especially pop and jazz stylings) to his movies….something that has made his scoring of the more ‘adult-orientated’ movies (the few that Goldsmith has worked on in recent years), dramas, thrillers, comedies and suchlike, rather less effective in my opinion.

I can only point to Goldsmith’s rejection from GLADIATOR (1992), THE PUBLIC EYE, and TWO DAYS IN THE VALLEY, and his departure from THE YARDS, DECEPTION, and THE KID as examples of Goldsmith’s diminishing versatility when composing for movies that fall outside of the genres of fantasy, sci-fi and horror during the 90’s.

Lukas Kendall’s explanation of Goldsmith’s non-involvement with Curtis Hanson’s latest project says it all - “…….As for Wonder Boys, the filmmakers decided to go with a more groove-oriented, contemporary approach and decided to hire Christopher Young as a stylistic choice…….”.

Can anyone think of another modern film composer to which the above could also apply?

Al

It is Williams’ approach to scoring his movies that continues to be so boldly CMS. The art of applying CMS isn’t just about applying contemporary pop and jazz stylings when they are required. The successful exponent of CMS is basically the composer who applies the most appropriate music based on the nature of the movie and society’s musical sensibilities….this can mean an overtly pop styled score, but by the same token, it can mean a purely symphonic score. During the 90s, Williams has maintained his success as a film composer, but has also broadened his repertoire. Goldsmith has continued to be a sought after film composer, but his repertoire has ceased to expand.

I am not attacking Goldsmith, or his music, or his fans….I am merely responding to Lonely Guy’s question, and stating my opinion that though he is a proficient film-composer, there may be upwards of fifty other current film composers who, thanks mainly to their willingness to embrace the ethos of CMS, are even more accomplished than Goldsmith.

If your wife is blessed with the gift of CMS (contemporary musical sensibilities), then I am deeply envious of you both.

I know quite a few non-hardcore score listeners who are familiar with and who admire the man's music. Oh well, just depends on which part of God's earth you're on.

That's just an example.

The quality of Goldsmith's scoring assignments has always been suspect and nobody would argue that, probably not even him himself. But that is irrelevent to this discussion. If anything it is even more a testament to Goldsmith that he has attained the level of popularity he has (even I was amazed at the range and profile of the audience at his recent Detroit concerts as well as their warm and enthusiastic reaction to his performances) despite the fact that he has never scored a single top ten blockbuster, let alone a string of them as Williams has.

You say that this music is primarily meant to exist within the realm of the film that inspired it yet you speak of a composer's popularity as if the film had nothing to do with promoting him. Williams' profile is dependent on the fact that he does score these movies which everyone wants to see (in a 80's interview he even said as much stating that if he scored a film he wanted it to be for a film that people would go see).

Goldsmith's only obligations are to the director who has employed him and to himself. And thank goodness for all the turds the man has scored.

The whole film music landscape is immensely enriched because of what they allowed him to produce. He IS popular to a huge international population and deservedly so. So John Williams enjoys more celebrity. It doesn't prove that he's any better at his job than Goldsmith.

I always like to use this analogy.
Kenny G sell more records that John Coltrane ever did but what he does sure ain't jazz.

Williams and Godsmith are the best composers working in Hollywood today IMHO. Both deserve all the respect and admiration they can get. Goldsmith deserves maybe even more than currently enjoys.

Therefore why do you, Daniel2, take every opportunity to diminish what he has accomplished over his long and fruitful career?

And looked how all of those movies benefitted too....

WONDERBOYS had to have been the worst excuse I've seen for a movie all year. I like artsy cerebral films and all, but, I could watch a college student puke his guts out for greater enjoyment.

Fact is, these producers didn't even consider John Williams...or hire him instead.

Williams, I suspect, is a bit deceptive anyway. I think he knows which projects to shy away from before any attachment between it and him can be made for his ego's and reputation's sake. I mean, would John Williams have even considered scoring 2 DAYS...?! (And I really like what I've heard of Goldsmith's score there.) Or MR. BASEBALL? Great Goldsmith score if I say so myself.

SABRINA wasn't exactly what I'd call a classic. In fact it's really what I'd call a DUD. D-U-D. Dud. Compare that to THE RUSSIA HOUSE. Nuff said.

The truth is, I'd like to see how Williams would have fared in Goldsmith's shoes. His musical vocabulary is much more limited, judging by how much of the same thing I've heard from him.

All these people you say know John Williams' music and love it more than Goldsmith's or whatever 1) probably don't know the first thing about good film music and 2) couldn't tell the difference between STAR WARS and SUPERMAN. Most can't. I've tested these types of folks. It's like using the argument 9 out of 10 high school dropouts agree that Crest is the best toothpaste you can buy! NO!!! It's 9 out of 10 ***DENTISTS*** that holds more weight. I'm convinced that if all of these "Williams-ites" found their ways here, they would probably think much differently after a while. I sure did. And so have a lot of others I've seen. The ones that say the "Well, I used to own mainly Williams stuff, but Goldsmith has really excited me lately" type of thing.

Turn up the AC! You're smokin'!

He says that Goldmith's prevalence in the fantasy genre accounts for most of his popularity.

I believe this to be true, but not for the reasons he suggests.

Pay attention, now, because the following statement is very important.

Most fantasy and science fiction movies require more elaborate scores than other genres.

Take a moment and read that statement again.

Most fantasy and science fiction movies require more elaborate scores than other genres.

It's true. Sometimes it is because of the alien-ness of the setting or events in the film, sometimes it happens to come about because of the fanciful nature of the storylines. Nevertheless, it is simply a provable fact that most fantasy and science fiction movies require more elaborate scores than other genres.

In general, films in these genres have scores that are allowed to play a larger role in the storytelling process than most other films.

To attribute Goldsmith's fandom to sycophantism is simplistic. I worked at a record store, and can say that Goldsmith's fans are a rather interesting cross-section of the population.

I refuse to start comparing the quality of Goldsmith's output to that of Williams' as I believe this is apple and oranges.

You said, “The quality of Goldsmith's scoring assignments has always been suspect and nobody would argue that, probably not even him himself. But that is irrelevent to this discussion. If anything it is even more a testament to Goldsmith that he has attained the level of popularity he has….”

Well said, an observation that I don’t wholly agree with, but nevertheless is compelling.

You go on to ask “…..why do you, Daniel2, take every opportunity to diminish what he (Goldsmith) has accomplished over his long and fruitful career?”

My perspective on things is that the movie comes first, and that film music is secondary to my enjoyment of the overall product (the movie). I love film music, but I love movie’s even more. Therefore, no matter how good the score, a bad movie cannot really be salvaged, in my eyes. Whether it is bad luck or poor judgement, the fact remains, as many admit, that a high proportion of Goldsmith movies have been poor. That may not matter to those of you who are mainly interested in music written for film, but to me, as one who doesn’t enjoy listening to soundtrack albums (with one or two exceptions of course), the success of the movie is vital to the success of the score also. You say yourself that Williams desires to score movies that people will want see….that only reinforces my belief that Williams’ (and Horner, Zimmer, Elfman, etc) approach to the task of scoring a picture serves the needs of his movies with far more success than Goldsmith’s.

Also, and especially considering the generally high quality of Goldsmith’s music prior to 1993, I find most of his 90s music to be extraordinarily limited in its scope…far more limited than virtually every other successful film composer in my opinion. This doesn’t supply me with ammunition to bombard Goldsmith’s 90’s work, it merely gives me a reason to register some surprise, and disappointment.

Bulldog

Love the toothpaste analogy.

Lonely Guy

Yes, but you haven’t mentioned CMS.

Al

Yes, Goldsmith’s scoring of THE HAUNTING was a brilliant example of his ability to blend his music expertly with the agenda and sensibilities of the movie…..if only he could do it in other more ‘adult-orientated’ genres also. He has the experience and the ability to interpret the agenda of his movies, it is the execution, the final application of music and the choice of musical styles, that seems to let him down.

By the way, I though Goldsmith’s music to THE HAUNTING was excellent in its own right, quite apart from how well it fitted into the movie…..it just goes to show…..

Swashbuckler

I couldn’t agree more, this is something I have said often in the past. The musical requirements of an urban thriller are probably going to be far less than the musical requirements of a fantasy movie. The fantasy movie can have the most grand and complex orchestral compositions, the composer can often let rip, whereas the urban drama does tend to limit the scope of the film score, from a purely musical point of view, and the composer’s music is then possibly less compelling and noticeable, and certainly less interesting away from the movie.

Also, your comments about Williams’ versatility are spot on, and your mention of SLEEPERS is a perfect example of Williams’ continued CMS excellence….not just because he applied contemporary musical ideas to this score, but because he was willing to supply the musical needs of the movie.

You're totally right! Williams' pre, I'll say STAR WARS, because JAWS was a knock-out, was absolutely like you say.

I should have remembered that. After all, THE REIVERS has to make into my Top Ten Williams list every time I think of what they might be.

But I still think that Williams' range is at least a bit more limited than Goldsmith's...or at least that Williams' style from film to film is less distinguished. Goldsmith's scores within a genre have generally had a familiar feel, but, for most of his career, the scores between genres have sounded very distinctive.

No, that’s my point. Amongst soundtrack fans Goldsmith is enormously popular. However, away from the esoteric circles of the film score enthusiast, Goldsmith is little known, in my experience. Therefore, because the soundtrack enthusiast comprises a tiny minority of society, it remains the case that Goldsmith is pretty much anonymous. With Williams, the reverse is true…..he is well known throughout society (and is also very popular amongst soundtrack fans).

Williams is a household name, Goldsmith is a proficient, but little known, film composer.

Seven Days in May
Seconds
Lillies of the Field
Freud
In Harm's Way
Planet of the Apes
The Blue Max
Patton
Chinatown
Papillon
QBVII
The Wind and The Lion
The Great Train Robbery
Islands In The Stream
Alien
Poltergiest
Under Fire
and so on

And I still fail to see your point regarding the quality of film having anything to do with the quality of the resultant score.

By your own theorem Goldsmith gave these films bad or good what they needed (appropriate score), and far more often than not, spectacularly more than they deserved. So now that is to be held against him?

Goldsmith's indiscretion in picking assignments may be a point of criticism
if we were talking about career management but we're not (and who knows, maybe Goldsmith took those assignemnts because there was something there which challenged him). We're talking about a composer's music and how that has built awareness of his contribution to the art of scoring.

You assert that he is known only in the narrow circle of film score enthusiasts. 99% of film composers fit that profile, so what?

If he is known only to those passionate few then your point would be?...

Such departments no longer exist.

More times than not, a composer will create a score for the movie as it could have been, namely as good as it appeared in script and talent form, but turns out differently (13th Warrior a recent example).

Daniel's arguments emanate from a concept he calls contemporary musical sensibility. Based on this strict criterion, he is right. But CMS encompasses so much trash, from Britney to Madonna, N'Sync to gangsta rap, I myself cannot hold to any pop culture ephemera as a standard. Nor would Newman, or Herrmann or Steiner, or any composer who holds Music (capital M) more sacred than marketability.

The techno riffs in Arnold's World is Not Enough interfere with a composition good enough to stand without the nods to the pop market. But since the CD is marketed as the only medium for poppers to get hold of the Garbage tune, these had to be indulged. As a sales point, induced by the studio. The schism between Herrmann and Hitch was the result of studio pressure on Hitch to get more with it, musically. And the movies suffered.

Daniel's arguments have merit within the confines of their own thesis. But are we, musically, better off yielding to the demands of trends? For certain fluff pictures, fine. For substance go with a Musician. Even Mancini, for whom a pop tune was effortless, thrilled at the prospect of pure musical composition (for of all things Lifeforce, no classic but my guilty pleasure).

Goldsmith is pure gold. He reigns in my pantheon of composers because he is a Musician, not a slave to today's faddishness, even though he is capable of nods in that direction when required. But his music is pure, his talent is peerless, his ability to score the MOVIE is second to none.

Zimmer, as an example of the modern, with it composer, can "convince" the crowd of his "mastery" through bombast (Gladiator, where posters at Home Theater Forum rave about the loud battle music) or dooodle-do tunes (Driving Me Crazy..I mean, Driving Miss Daisy) but he does so without thematic unity: the music might as well have been assembled from pre-fabricated library cues. That is where Goldsmith is unassailable. Unity of musical purpose, mastery of musical application. Zimmer is damn fine at assembling a musical package. Goldsmith COMPOSES music.

"Goldsmith’s chief area of success has been in scoring the science fiction, fantasy and horror genres"

"To put it another way, in my opinion Goldsmith doesn’t simply have a popular soundtrack fan following because of movies like CHINATOWN or PAPILLON or LA CONFIDENTIAL. Goldsmith is popular amongst soundtrack fans because of fantasy movies like Star Trek"

"Much as I admire Goldsmith, it must be said that he is one of the very few film composers working today who is ‘limited’ to scoring (successfully) only a small number of genres, such as sci-fi and horror and fantasy."

DANIEL2
If you go back to your article, you will find out that you talk about soundtrack fans
and not about my mother and my father or any other unfamiliar with that kind of music.I know that Williams is better known than Jerry and Mancini than Herrmann but this is
not what you wrote in your first article.
You were talking about soundtrack fans saying that they prefer his sf and horror scores and that Jerry is not such good in scoring other films.
So...What is it about the rest of humanity?
I simply don´t care what an ignorant about film music prefers.And it is sure that he prefers William´s STAR WARS than Jerry´s PAPILLON.So be specific and tell me...do you really believe that we soundtrack fans-who are really a tiny minority comparing to the rest of humanity-prefer Jerry because of his SF and Horror scores only?Do we say that his music for all the movies i refer to in my above article have mediocre scores because of Jerry´s incapability?

Yes, I believe that Goldsmith is the most popular film composer (arguably) amongst soundtrack enthusiasts because of some of his scores to fantasy movies. Though much of Goldsmith’s best work is in the fantasy genres, he has also produced some fine work in other genres, but it is still the case, in my opinion, that Goldsmith’s compositional style is best suited to fantasy and action movies, rather than ‘adult-orientated’ genres.

HAL 2000

You said – ”The quality of Goldsmith's scoring assignments has always been suspect and nobody would argue that….”.

Even you admit that many of the projects with which Goldsmith has been connected have been poor. However, many of the Goldsmith-scored movies you have listed above are excellent pictures (like SEVEN DAYS IN MAY)…..but they still only comprise a small proportion of his career filmography.

I do understand your point about the quality of the movie having little to do with the quality of the resultant score. However, my point is that the success of the overall movie is more important to me than the success of the score alone. Having said that, I can still appreciate ‘good scoring to bad movies’…..Goldsmith’s magnificent Wagnerian masterpiece to the dire THE FINAL CONFLICT is a perfect example of this…..and that’s just my point, a high proportion of Goldsmith’s movie assignments have been poor despite some superb scoring.

Please find below an analysis of Goldsmith’s entire career. I rate each of his movies, first the score itself (how the music works for the movie…I do not regard albums with any importance at all), followed by the overall movie.

HERE I RATE EACH GOLDSMITH SCORE (overall movie ratings follow later)

1999 A hat-trick of memorable, distinctive and wholly enjoyable scores.

The Haunting ****1/2
The Mummy ****
The 13th Warrior ****1/2

1998

Star Trek IX **1/2
Small Soldiers **1/2
Mulan **1/2
U.S. Marshals 1/2
Deep Rising ***

1997

Air Force One **1/2
The Edge **1/2
L.A.Confidential *1/2
Fierce Creatures **1/2

1996

Star Trek VIII *
The Ghost and the Darkness **
Chain Reaction *
Executive Decision ***
City Hall 1/2

1995

Powder **1/2
First Knight *
Congo **

1994

IQ **1/2
The River Wild 1/2
The Shadow *
Bad Girls *
Angie *

1993 The highlight here was DENNIS, one of my favourite Goldsmith scores from the 90’s.

Six Degrees of Separation ***
Rudy *
Malice *
Dennis the Menace ***1/2
Matinee *1/2
The Vanishing ***
Love Field *1/2

1992 Another Goldsmith/Verhoeven triumph. BASIC INSTINCT would prove to be one of the most influential film scores of the 90’s.

Forever Young **
Mr. Baseball **1/2
Mom & Dad Save the World **
BASIC INSTINCT *****
Medicine Man **

1991

Sleeping w/the Enemy ***1/2
Not Without My Daughter ***

1990 A trio of Goldsmith classics, here we see just what Goldsmith is capable of, sheer brilliance.

THE RUSSIA HOUSE *****
Gremlins 2 ***1/2
TOTAL RECALL *****

1989

Star Trek V ***
Leviathan *
The 'Burbs **1/2

1988

Warlock **1/2
Criminal Law ***
Rambo III **
Rent-a-Cop ***1/2

1987 Two scores, EXTREME PREJUDICE and LIONHEART, completely different in just about every way, yet bound by Goldsmith’s hallmark of quality.

Innerspace ***
Extreme Prejudice ****
LIONHEART *****

1986 Goldsmith’s most recent British film (LINK) had a really fun score, and HOOSIERS (aka BEST SHOT) had a very successful multi-faceted score.

Hoosiers ****1/2
Link ****
Poltergeist 2 **

1985 The action film score par excellence, and what many consider to be Goldsmith’s ‘magnum opus’.

Legend ***1/2
RAMBO: FIRST BLOOD PART II *****
Baby **

1984 The pulsating RUNAWAY was a great example of the exciting electronic score.

Runaway ****
Supergirl **
Gremlins ***
The Lonely Guy ***

1983 Perhaps UNDER FIRE gave us Goldsmith’s best album? TWILIGHT ZONE had a great score, especially the sentimental Crothers portion, and the spiky Lithgow segment.

UNDER FIRE *****
Twilight Zone: The Movie ****
Psycho II **

1982 Classic scores through and through. FIRST BLOOD virtually defined its genre, THE CHALLENGE was absolutely ace, and THE SECRET OF NIMH is really what film music is all about.

First Blood ****
The Challenge ****
THE SECRET OF NIMH *****
Poltergeist ***1/2

1981 Goldsmith surprised some with his profound Wagnerian work on THE FINAL CONFLICT, quite different from his previous Omen scores.

Night Crossing ***
Raggedy Man **
Outland **
The Final Conflict ****

1980 Goldsmith followed up STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE (my favourite JG score) with the magnificent MASADA, a score that appears to come from the composers’ heart.

Masada ****
Caboblanco **

1979 Two classic and very influential sci-fi scores, completely different from one another.

STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE *****
Players **
Alien ****1/2

1978 A vintage period, characterized by a manic energy in Goldsmith’s writing.

THE FIRST GREAT TRAIN ROBBERY *****
Damien: Omen II ***
Capricorn One **1/2
Coma ***1/2
The Swarm **1/2
THE BOYS FROM BRAZIL *****
Magic ****

1977

MacArthur **
Islands in the Stream ***1/2
Damnation Alley **1/2
Twilights Last Gleaming **1/2

1976

The Omen **1/2
The Cassandra Crossing ***
Logan’s Run **1/2

1975 BREAKHEART PASS was a fun mystery movie, with a knockout ‘western’ score.

Breakheart Pass ****
The Reincarnation of Peter Proud **1/2
The Wind and the Lion ***
Ransom **1/2
Breakout ***

1974 A late entry in noir scoring, and up there with the best.

Chinatown ****
A Tree Grows in Brookyn *

1973

Papillon ****1/2
Shamus *1/2
Indict and Convict *1/2

1972

Pursuit ****
The Other **1/2

1971

Wild Rovers **
Escape From the Planet of the Apes ***
The Mephisto Waltz ****
The Last Run ****
The Brotherhood of the Bell **1/2

1970

The Ballad of Cable Hogue **1/2
Patton ****
Tora! Tora! Tora! **1/2
Rio Lobo **1/2

1969

100 Rifles **
The Chairman *1/2
Justine ***
The Illustrated Man **1/2

1968

The Detective ****
Planet of the Apes ****1/2
Sebastian ***1/2

1967

Warning Shot ***1/2
The Flim Flam Man **
Hour of the Gun **1/2
In Like Flint ***

1966

Stagecoach *1/2
The Sand Pebbles ***
The Blue Max ****
Seconds ***
The Trouble with Angels **1/2

1965

Von Ryan’s Express **
A Patch of Blue ***1/2
Our Man Flint ****1/2
The Satan Bug **
In Harm’s Way **1/2

1964

Rio Conchos **
Fate is the Hunter **1/2
Seven Days in May **1/2
The Prize *1/2

1963

A Gathering of Eagles **1/2
THE LIST OF ADRIAN MESSENGER *****
Lillies of the Field ***1/2

1962

The Spiral Road **1/2
Lonely are the Brave ***
Freud **1/2

1959

Face of a Fugitive *
City of Fear ***

AND NOW I RATE THE MOVIE AS A WHOLE.

1999 THE MUMMY was a really entertaining movie, to me.

The Haunting **
The Mummy ***1/2
The 13th Warrior **1/2

1998 STAR TREK IX evoked the charming campness of the 60’s series, and DEEP RISING was a delicious Mickey-take of the action/sci-fi/horror genres.

Star Trek IX ***
Small Soldiers **1/2
Mulan ***
U.S. Marshals **
Deep Rising ***1/2

1997 AIR FORCE ONE was a favourite at the box office and LA CONFIDENTIAL was the darling of the critics.

Air Force One ****
The Edge ***
L.A.Confidential ****
Fierce Creatures *1/2

1996 British director Stuart Baird came up trumps with the excellent EXECUTIVE DECISION.

Star Trek VIII **1/2
The Ghost and the Darkness *1/2
Chain Reaction *
Executive Decision ***1/2
City Hall *1/2

1995

Powder ***
First Knight 1/2
Congo **1/2

1994 ANGIE was a warm and sentimental drama; it deserved to do better at the box office, in my opinion.

IQ *1/2
The River Wild 1/2
The Shadow *
Bad Girls 1/2
Angie ***1/2

1993 The kids loved DENNIS, and so did I.

Six Degrees of Separation ***
Rudy **
Malice **1/2
Dennis the Menace ***1/2
Matinee *1/2
The Vanishing ***
Love Field ***

1992 BASIC INSTINCT was very classy and is now a legend of cinema.

Forever Young **1/2
Mr. Baseball *
Mom & Dad Save the World *
Basic Instinct ****1/2
Medicine Man **1/2

1991

Sleeping w/the Enemy ***
Not Without My Daughter ***
1990 TOTAL RECALL had Goldsmith working on a top quality action comic, and he didn’t disappoint.
The Russia House **
Gremlins 2 **
Total Recall ***1/2

1989

Star Trek V *
Leviathan 1/2
The 'Burbs **

1988 RAMBO III continued where RAMBO II left off, tremendous fun.

Warlock *1/2
Criminal Law *1/2
Rambo III ***1/2
Rent-a-Cop **

1987

Innerspace ***
Extreme Prejudice ***
LIONHEART 1/2

1986 HOOSIERS wasn’t just about basketball, it was also about what makes us human.

Hoosiers ****
Link *1/2
Poltergeist 2 *1/2

1985 RAMBO II was to me the perfect action movie; who could forget Rambo’s 'I’m gonna get you Murdock'.

Legend *
Rambo: First Blood Pt II ****
Baby *

1984 THE LONELY GUY was a sweet and insightful comedy. Of the many comic highlights, the most memorable were Grodin’s ‘….if you’re like me, never go to sleep in the afternoon….it just means you have to wake up and realize who you are TWICE in the same day….’, and the sight of a rigor mortised Martin being dumped into a trash can still clutching his television remote control.

Runaway **1/2
Supergirl *1/2
Gremlins **1/2
The Lonely Guy ***1/2

1983 UNDER FIRE was a very involving movie with superb performances, and an absolute peach of a score from JG.

Under Fire ***1/2
Twilight Zone: The Movie **
Psycho II **1/2

1982 FIRST BLOOD is maybe the granddaddy of the modern action movie, and THE SECRET OF NIMH was a beautifully realized tale.

First Blood ****
The Challenge **1/2
The Secret of NIMH ****
Poltergeist **1/2

1981

Night Crossing **1/2
Raggedy Man ***
Outland **
The Final Conflict *1/2

1980

Masada ***
Caboblanco *

1979 ALIEN is a truly classic movie.

Star Trek: The Motion Picture *1/2
Players *1/2
ALIEN *****

1978

The First Great Train Robbery ***
Damien: Omen II **
Capricorn One **1/2
Coma ***
The Swarm *1/2
The Boys from Brzail **1/2
Magic **

1977

MacArthur **
Islands in the Stream **
Damnation Alley *
Twilights Last Gleaming **

1976

The Omen *1/2
The Cassandra Crossing **
Logan’s Run **

1975

Breakheart Pass **1/2
The Reincarnation of Peter Proud *1/2
The Wind and the Lion **
Ransom **
Breakout **

1974 Out of the blue came this near classic, recapturing the essence of the 40’s noir.

Chinatown ****1/2
A Tree Grows in Brooklyn *

1973

Papillon **1/2
Shamus ***
Indict and Convict *

1972

Pursuit ***
The Other *1/2

1971 THE LAST RUN benefited from a superb performance from Scott, excellent locations, a fine Goldsmith score, and an interesting ‘human’ story.

Wild Rovers *1/2
Escape From the Planet of the Apes **
The Mephisto Waltz ***
The Last Run ****
The Brotherhood of the Bell **

1970 PATTON is one of the best screen biographies.

The Ballad of Cable Hogue **1/2
Patton ****
Tora! Tora! Tora! **
Rio Lobo *1/2

1969

100 Rifles *
The Chairman 1/2
Justine ***
The Illustrated Man **

1968 THE DETECTIVE had a blistering score from Goldsmith, and is one of the most entertaining ‘detective’ stories of the 60’s.

The Detective ****
Planet of the Apes ****
Sebastian ***

1967

Warning Shot ***
The Flim Flam Man **
Hour of the Gun **1/2
In Like Flint *1/2

1966 THE BLUE MAX provides a very colourful depiction of life amongst the German ranks during the Great War.

Stagecoach *
The Sand Pebbles ***
The Blue Max ****
Seconds ***
The Trouble with Angels **1/2

1965 Goldsmith’s parodic score to OUR MAN FLINT, was just one of that film’s assets.

Von Ryan’s Express **
A Patch of Blue ***1/2
Our Man Flint ***1/2
The Satan Bug **
In Harm’s Way ***

1964 SEVEN DAYS IN MAY had a great cast and a fascinating plot.

Rio Conchos *1/2
Fate is the Hunter **1/2
Seven Days in May ****
The Prize **1/2

1963 THE LIST OF ADRIAN MESSENGER was a gimmicky movie that also happened to be very good.

A Gathering of Eagles ***
The List of Adrian Messenger ****
Lillies of the Field ***

1962

The Spiral Road **1/2
Lonely are the Brave ***
Freud ***

1959

Face of a Fugitive **
City of Fear **1/2

CAREER AVERAGE RATING FOR SCORE – *** 2.91
CAREER AVERAGE RATING FOR THE OVERALL MOVIE – **1/2 2.39

CONCLUSION – On the whole, it appears that the quality of Goldsmith’s scoring is EVEN better than the movies to which he is attached.

This analysis perfectly illustrates the fact that though I regard the overall success of the movie with most concern, I am still able to appreciate a good film score, irrespective of the quality of the overall movie. Goldsmith’s career can be loosely summed up by saying – ‘most of his movies were poor, but most of his scores were good’. However, because I am more interested with the overall success of the movie, I would much prefer it if Goldsmith’s career could be summarized by saying – ‘most of his movies were good, but most of his scores were bad’.

Moral – a good film is far less likely to be damaged by a bad score, than a bad film improved by a good score.

The film score is only one element (important though it is) of many components that makes up the overall movie. Many of Goldsmith’s movies are poor, and despite Goldsmith’s often great efforts, remain so. However, if most of Goldsmith’s movies were good, even the poorest film-scoring would be unlikely to seriously undermine the success of the overall movie. Name one bad Goldsmith-scored movie made good by a great score. LIONHEART was abysmal, and Goldsmith’s absolutely magnificent score could do nothing to retrieve it. Name one good Goldsmith-scored movie that is good because of Goldsmith’s scoring. PLANET OF THE APES was always going to be a good movie, it just happened to also be blessed with a great score. Likewise, Newborn’s PLANES, TRAINS, AND AUTOMOBILES had a very poor score in my opinion, but it was still a fine movie. THE PEACEMAKER had a superb score from Zimmer, but it was still a very poor movie.

I don’t hold anything against Goldsmith, least of all his giving his best scoring efforts to even the poorest movies. I am just pointing out that the fact remains that most of Goldsmith’s projects have been mediocre, irrespective of the success of the score. Unfortunately, during the 90s, though Goldsmith’s projects have remained generally poor, the apparent effort he applies to his scoring has also declined precipitously……thus, we have thirty or so 90s Goldsmith-scored movies that are poor, and also rather unsuccessfully scored.

My main point is, though many great film composers such as Steiner and Alfred Newman may not be well known outside of the soundtrack-enthusiast’s world, they still scored a sizeable number of classic movies. Williams has gained ‘household name’ and has scored a sizeable number of classic movies.

GOLDSMITH IS VIRTUALLY UNKNOWN OUTSIDE OF THE SOUNDTRACK ENTHUSIAST’S WORLD AND HAS SCORED VERY FEW GREAT MOVIES.

On the whole Goldsmith’s film-scoring may be very good, but since movie scores are of very little interest to the majority of cinema-goers (let alone the rest of society who don’t go to the movies), and Goldsmith has scored so few good movies anyway, he has gained very little public recognition.

Ask the average Joe in the street “What do you think of Jerry Goldsmith’s film music?”, the vast majority of people will respond by saying –

You're saying it's the whole experience. Therefore, it's obvious WHY Goldsmith is "lesser known" (not unknown) to the general public.

The issue is thus settled in terms of cause and effect. SO why is Goldmith so popular despite the obstackles you've stated? Answer: The man must simply write great music.

all this for an obvious answer?

He is so popular because he is so darn good.