Well I am just listening to trakc one now and let me way WOW! I love it (so far). If the main theme is this good the score has to be REALLY good! I am hoping for the best. Well back to writting thank you cards and eatting my huge bowl of Cookies & Cream ice cream

--Kyp

NP: The Patriot: John Williams

PS: Just think what Arnold could have done with this movie! And remember everyone to see the movie tomorrow and Perfect Storm on Friday!

Movie ****/*****
score ****1/2 / *****

I will see the movie, but I hesitate to buy the score. Honestly, I find all of John William's recent works (although brilliantly crafted) to be drab. The only music that I am into of his is the older classics, and you know which ones I'm talking about.

The British actor Jason Isaacs, who plays the despicable red-coat Colonel Tavington, was recently reported in the British press as saying that until he began working on THE PATRIOT, his knowledge of the American Revolution (the British American colonies’ rebellion against the British crown) was very limited. Indeed, Isaacs went on to say that though Tavington, the character he plays in THE PATRIOT, is portrayed as a monster, in actuality the British were far more brutal and savage in their persecution of the British American colonists. This is a travesty. It was a war (basically British versus British), and every war has its villains….the American revolution was a far more complex issue than simply the evil imperial British red-coats versus the virtuous and justified people of its American colonies, that THE PATRIOT would appear to depict…..watch THE SCARLET COAT (US 1955 movie **** score ***) for an account of the American Revolution (or at least, like THE PATRIOT, some aspects of it) that is far more sympathetic towards the truth.

The American Revolution was one of the saddest and most embarrassing moments in British history….the only consolation for the British being the securing of Canada as a strong and loyal territory within the British Empire.

I love John Williams and I've loved his output over the past few years (not to mention the rest of his career)- but with The Patriot it kindof has a "been there, done that" feel to it. Perhaps the score will grow on me. Tracks 14,15 and 16 definitely are!

One particular scene, in my mind, becomes to emotional for the average viewer. We all wait for Gibsons character to rescue the town but he doesn't show up in time. When you see the movie, you'll know what I'm talking about. It's a very sad scene. All I'm going to say it happen about 2 hours into the movie during a so-called town meeting.

The cinematography is well done, the emotional buttons are pushed at the right time and the battle sequences are performed with shear power.

If you want somemore advice, don't drink to much. You'll only have to get up and visit the little boy or girls room. That's all folks!!!!!

TimP: thanks for being the devil's advocate. All I have to say is that Williams may have done this all before at various times (Star Wars, Angela's Ashes, IJ, SPR, JP, Hook, JFK), but this score really brings all the styles together, and forms a completely new work.
If you've heard The Unfinished Journey millennium piece, you'll notice a slight similarity in tonality, but then, it's John Williams just being John Williams, and that's a good thing.

quote:

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Originally posted by sean:
I don't think Delvin and Emmerich should make anymore movies. The screenplay was awful and they tried cramming too much in instead of focusing on the more personal story; oh well, I don't really care for them showing everyone what it's like to be American. Williams' score had it's moments, I liked the Asteroid Field motif on one of the tracks, maybe that's on the CD? .....btw, Al, I tend to agree with you; his scores are very well put together, but don't really offer anything spectacular as far the content....anyway, I don't really see how anyone could like that film and sit through it without laughing at some of the riculous messages and dialogue (ie. "Damn that man! Damn him!"....(something like that) )

NP: The Delta Force (Alan Silvestri) ****/***** (hehehehe.....it kicks!)

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I just realized you called me a bastard !

bad form, I must say!

Shaun, I agree with you - this is a wonderful score. But I don't think I'd go as far as to say "to hell with drivel like Battlefield Earth, The Perfect Storm, Gladiator, and Dinosaur." While I haven't heard Battlefield Earth in full, the others are great film scores in their own respect. Williams' music might have more of an emotional core and complexity to them, and that's awesome... Williams always does a great job with that, but I think it's unfair to make a comment like the one you made. This year (so far) has been a great year for film music! It's all been pretty darn good.

And JJH... Your comment regarding Williams' action music vs. Goldsmith's was TOTALLY unnecessary. You best watch yourself! Don't make me open up a can of you-know-what. You just think you don't need braces... I got friends in Lubbock, you know! Hehe

Jeron

NP - The Patriot (by... oh, I can't ever remember his name... I think he did some noteable thematics revolving a plot w/ some guy wearing a fedora... but then again, maybe that was Horner...)

...you are... you.. you.. you dummy.

That's right. How do you like that, huh? What're you gonna do? What're you gonna do?

Okay. Okay. I'm alright. I'm cool now.

Jeron,
How long have we known each other now? Get my damn name right! Or was that payback for me "dissin'" Gladiator and Dinosaur? We all know why Gladiator has been the subject of much love and hate, but Dinosaur----come on! James Newton Howard STILL hasn't written anything surprising or original since Waterworld (which, I admit, isn't the most original score in the world, but it at least had a sense of excitement and thought put into its orchestrations; since then, every one of Howard's scores has been by-the-numbers). "The Egg Travels" has moments, but most of that track is culled from older Howard scores.

Shaun
NP---Narrow Margin

NP: THe Perfect Storm (James Horner) ***/*****

Shaun

Snow Falling on Cedars, to me, is worth it just for the Tarawa track, and the last 3 or 4 tracks as well. If you find it used in Al-Tuna, that is.

NP Awakenings...to help me sleep?

NP: Metallica - Garage Inc. ****/*****

[This message has been edited by sean (edited 28 June 2000).]

quote:

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Originally posted by sean:
It's pathetic, do they need to make a film about the American Revolution?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lee:
the British officers were basically made to act like horrible people with no souls.

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I listened to it during work and was so touched by certain parts that I dismissed the class (I really did), closed the door and just enjoyed the ride. During the open themes when the flutes take over, I got such an emotional tornado that the stomach pain I had (been suffering from ulcer like condiitions lately)actually left.

I can't wait to see the movie. The score brings emotions of sadness, patriatism, lonelyness, excitement, salvation and urgendcy, it just changes your whole outlook of life at that particular time. Naturally I am not going to mention about the incredible complexitiy of the score. Yes, it sounds often like John Williams, but every composer sounds like themselves, the same as I write like myself, so I ain't even going to toubh on that.

All I can say is that this is the best John Williams score since, perhaps Star Wars TPM (ohh, I liked Angela's Ashes, but I prefer this one). Yes, I do agree that this among the best scores so far.

Anyway, any score that can change my emotions that quickly (and it happens, perhaps not to this extend...at least not all the time)and effectively is truly a great score.

Scott

For all of you who disagree...I still love ya.

Well, no, not especially, but then again, do they really need to make a horrid adaptation of a bad L Ron Hubbard sci-fi novel?
nope.

I'll say it again.
Personally, I think it'd be great to get a real, truly historical picture. But that's wishful thinking. history always takes a back seat to cinematic drama. Just look at Prince of Egypt. I won't be shocked if Patriot succumbs to cliche and historical inaccuracy. Nothing Devlina nd Emmerich does surprises me. I think they're all about sheer entertainment value, not history/ plausibility.

at the very least we have a memorable John Williams score, with a theme that'll get played at every patriotic ceremony, kindas like Hymn to the Kennedy's, uh, Fallen.

Re: the Revolutionary War. I was given a full dose of this in elementary school. When I was in Virginia it was extremely cool to be at the same church where Patrick Henry gave his famous "Give me liberty or give me death!" speech.

TO: Al, Shaun
FROM: M. Bialystock

Keep talking like that and I'm gonna make you both stars. See "Templeton" thread.

Max

I suggest you appraise yourself of British and American history, you are almost entirely wrong in what you say.

Yes, the British made some terrible blunders in their attempts to raise taxes from their American colonies, and to a great degree I sympathise with the British American colonists situation at that time.

However.

Firstly, the taxes that the English crown imposed on the British American colonists were necessary following the end of the French and Indian War in 1763. The French and Indian War was but one small element of Britain’s global war, fought on all continents, with France, Spain and Holland. Britain’s victory in the French and Indian War not only won Canada for the British Empire, but also ensured that the North American continent was destined to remain a predominantly English-speaking part of the world. The French and Indian War involved the movement of a large number of forces from mother England, and the bolstering of the British American colonist’s militia. It was at this time that George Washington distinguished himself fighting for the British against the French…..in fact, Washington was desperately opposed to any thoughts of breaking away from the British Empire right up to the declaration of independence. Indeed, it was under Washington’s direction that America’s first flag was hoist in 1776. The flag was the same as the current stars and stripes except that the British Union Jack was placed where the stars are found today. The 13 stripes still remain to this day as a reminder of the original 13 British American colonies.

The French and Indian War was not just about Britain wanting to defeat its old imperial rivals, France. The French, from their strongholds in Canada made frequent sorties into British territory, and along with their Indian allies, were particularly brutal in their murder of British American colonists in New England and New York. The war was eventually won by the British after seven years, but at a cost. Taxes had to be imposed to regain some of the money Britain had expended on its war with the French to protect its American colonists.

Many people also overlook another significant factor that led to the War of Independence. Once Britain had won Canada in 1763, it still had the problem of having to govern the defeated French population. Difficulties arose because the French were Roman Catholic and the British were Protestant. In this case, the British were too lenient with the French, and in the eyes of the British American colonists the British authorities were too accommodating towards the French colonists’ demands. The British American colonists were very unhappy about the leniency the British showed the conquered French, and this exacerbated the growing tensions throughout the 13 British American colonies.

Of course, when the American War of Independence began after many political blunders by the British, the British army soon gained the upper hand, and it was only when the French joined the rebelling colonists that the tide turned…..the war was no longer just British versus British. With Spain, Holland and Russia also joining the war against the British Empire, the British were in a hopeless position.

However, once America gained independence, it wasn’t long before Britain established itself as the greatest and largest empire the world has ever known by consolidating its position in Canada, defeating the French in India (The British Empire’s Jewel in the Crown) and later gaining Australia, New Zealand, and much of the Caribbean, south east Asia and Africa.

Dantoris. You say the British officers were horrible people with no souls. As a general rule, this is absolute nonsense. Yes, as in any army, there were the odd ‘bad apples’, but on the whole, the British fought with dignity and with heartfelt regret….after all, the British army was fighting its own countrymen. In fact, such was the gentlemanly nature of the British army’s conduct, at one point during the war, a small British detachment apprehended George Washington….bear in mind the Americans actively sought to eliminate the British officers (a fair enough tactic I suppose), but the British thought it ungentlemanly to eliminate an opposing officer and therefore allowed Washington (an Englishman anyway) to return to his ranks.

You then go on to say – “People always say, "Why are British protrayed as so evil in historical movies?" Because, most of the time, they were. It's not an opinion, it's fact. It's history.”

Either you’ve been misled in the schoolroom, or you’ve been taking Hollywood movies too seriously…..either way, what you say here couldn’t be further from the truth. True, the British in movies are often portrayed as the bad guys, but in real life, the British have impacted in a positive way on the globe like no other nation….indeed, it was the British people themselves who founded the 13 American colonies that would later become the fledgling United States of America.

The American Constitution itself was not only inspired by the philosophies of Englishmen, but was put in place by American colonists almost exclusively descended from British colonists.

The British may have behaved badly toward its American colonies during the 1770's, but that was out of character and not representative of Britain's usual conduct.

And remember dantoris, it was the British who first abolished slavery in 1807 long before the USA. The British abolition of slavery had a direct impact on the Spainish and Portuguese South American nations' claims for independence from Europe.

Secondly, having a father who is incredible-talented in knowing history (from the Revolutionary War up to today's corrupt politics), I've grown up in a world of history about this country. And before you can say (or suggest) maybe he's covered up a few facts over the years, he hasn't. He's told it how it was, without any sugar-coating of any kind.

I'm not to great at talking about politics, so maybe I need to word what I said differently, but I'm just tired of people always complaining about how films make them look. (Like when the British Prime Minister denounced U-571. Come on, people. It's a movie. Before the end credits even roll, the film directly acknowledges it was the British who acquired the Enigma machine.)

Anyway, I'm outta here. I hate discussing politics and such, so it's back to film music for me.