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How many of you saw "LEGEND" with Goldsmith's outstanding score?
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Topic: How many of you saw "LEGEND" with Goldsmith's outstanding score?

Andre Lux
unregistered
Brasil was among the countries which had the privilege to see Ridley Scott's "Legend" with Jerry's outstanding score.It just chocked me to know, while reading "The Battle of Brazil", that Ridley Scott himself allowed Universal president Sid Sheinberg to dump Jerry score in favor of that dreadful Tangerine Dream one, among other "improvements" (sic).
In Scott's words: "In a way, I was trying to do that with Legend, only for adults. I wanted them to experience the same kind of awe kids get with the Disney films. We made it and I think there's a lot of great work in it. Brilliant costumes and set design. And [Goldsmith] did a relly good score. But the combination of the score and what I'd done was apparently too sweet. It had a very bad preview."
Can you believe it? It's embarrassing to know Scott was really convinced by tight-ass studio executives that his movie sucked because of Jerry's magic orchestral score. "It won't appeal to 12 year old moviegoers", Sheinberg explained.
I shouldn't be so shocked about that, since Scott's new soul mate "composer" is... well, we know who...
And indeed mindless teenager moviegoers seems to love it!!Far for being a great movie, the original cut of "Legend" has almost nothing to do with the ridiculous butchered American release, which I saw on VCR years later. Jerry's score makes a whole world of difference. In fact it's the only thing which makes the movie to get some sense trough all the confusing editing and shallow characters.
Anyway, just wanna know how many of you have seem the original cut of "Legend" and what you make of it...
posted 06-10-2000 06:56 PM PT (US) 
H Rocco
Oscar® Winner

I read that book too, and I remember, way back when, what the climate was like at the time Scott caved in to Sheinberg. In the same few months, Terry Gilliam stood up to Sheinberg and kept Michael Kamen's score to BRAZIL, and most of his original cut as well. Scott didn't have the same nerve, and Goldsmith's score went out the window, as did most of Scott's and Terry Rawlings' version of the cut.I've seen the Japanese laserdisc of LEGEND, back in the summer of 1989. It's somewhat more coherent than the American/Tangerine Dream version, but still not a great movie. I was distressed by the small quotes from the PSYCHO II score (a temp-track legacy), and felt the movie in general wasn't really as good as it should have been. (Goldsmith said that it was the producers, not Ridley Scott, who approached him to score LEGEND -- Scott hadn't even dreamed Goldsmith would want to talk to him again after ALIEN, but Goldsmith loved the original William Hjortsberg script, then called LEGEND OF DARKNESS, and signed to do the job on that basis. And, he said, Scott was much more approachable and communicative on LEGEND -- for all the good it did them.)
Ridley Scott felt miserable about what happened to Goldsmith's score, and told a reporter that he wanted to work with Goldsmith again and hoped that the composer would "forgive" him. Told of this, Goldsmith snapped back, "No, I don't forgive him. Why should I forgive him?"
I finally saw Scott's GLADIATOR yesterday, and while it's not as bad as some of its detractors are saying -- actually, I rather enjoyed it -- it should have been a lot better. But maybe it couldn't have been. Who knows. Not me.
posted 06-10-2000 07:08 PM PT (US) 
JJH

Oscar® Winner

I would like to know if it's on video or DVD.
NP -- The Robe, Alfred Newmanposted 06-10-2000 07:08 PM PT (US) 
Jeron

Oscar® Winner

It's been rumored that the upcoming "Legend" DVD release *will* be accompanied by either both versions of the film or solely the European version which contains Jerry's incredible score. Sorry for the run-on. If the rumor is true, I'm utterly excited to see it released.While I enjoyed the original film, I guess I was only 8 or 9 when I saw it. Tangerine Dream's music did stand out to me, though those were my "early" years in film music and of course, appealed to me only for the reasons Ridley Scott and the producers aimed for it to.
Goldsmith's score is far superior (which is actually an understatement). Lord of the Rings would benefit from such a score. Let's keep our fingers crossed for that DVD release!
Jeron
posted 06-10-2000 07:20 PM PT (US) 
H Rocco
Oscar® Winner

I might as well point out that I don't think the Tangerine Dream score is all that bad. It wasn't what the picture SHOULD have had, but it was a decent piece of work, taken on its own terms. And one of the Dream-members themselves observed how much they respected Goldsmith's original work on the film -- "We really loved that opening he did," one of them said. But at the end of the day, it was their job to replace it, no matter what they felt about what had gone before. Goldsmith's been in that position before too, even replacing the work of old friends (e.g. Randy Newman's AIR FORCE ONE.) It happens to be the business they're in.
posted 06-10-2000 07:39 PM PT (US) 
Kevin
Oscar® Winner

I just got an email from a friend of mine in Hollywood, and he says that Legend is coming out. Here's what he said to me...quote:
Confirmation has come, if somewhat bliquely, that the long-rumored "director's cut" of LEGEND featuring Jerry Goldsmith's score is finally close to being a reality.Reps at Universal have confirmed this.
What kind of film a longer LEGEND will turn out to be is anyone's guess.
I think there should be a campaign to put Jerry's score on a music only track.
We'll see.
(I know he wouldn't mind me putting this up, so...)
As of know, he didn't know of a set release date, but probably before the end of the year.
Kevin
posted 06-10-2000 09:11 PM PT (US) 
egraff
Oscar® Nominee

Though I deplore removing a score like LEGEND from ANY film for ANY reason, I admit that Tangerine Dream's work was surprisingly good.Goldsmith's score is warm, emotional, and sweeping in scope. It truly does have a "Disney" sense of wonder about it. It also plays directly to the characters in a really wonderful way. LEGEND's characters were stock "types" and Goldsmith was able to communicate their "feelings" to the audience in exactly the way well-written score should.
Tangerine Dream's approach was to play AGAINST emotion and evoke the strange and otherworldly aspects of the film. They went after atmosphere and mystery and got it, big time. I guess you could say they scored the "world" of LEGEND and Goldsmith scored the people who lived there.
I prefer Goldsmith's approach because it's always emotion that draws me in, and Dream's score has a cool detachment to it that reminds me of a music video. Others may disagree. Hopefully both versions will be included in any upcoming DVD.
posted 06-10-2000 09:42 PM PT (US) 
Chris Kinsinger

Oscar® Winner

Tangerine Dream did a fine and respectable piece of work on Legend.
Good job.
BUT Goldsmith's score is leagues ahead in every way.
posted 06-10-2000 10:05 PM PT (US) 
Timmer

Oscar® Winner

I saw this film on it's release in England complete with Goldsmith's score, though as His H'ness also points out, that extract from Psycho II really get's in the way, though no one save film score fans like us would notice. When the film gets shown on British tv it's always the awful American version, each time it's on I watch the first minute (c'mon y'think I'd sit through this crap time an agin) just to see if it's the Goldsmith scored version?!......it never is.NP : Dogma - Shore
posted 06-11-2000 07:08 AM PT (US) 
Andre Lux
unregistered
Don't take me wrong. I was trying to say the Dream score was "dreadful" when compared with Jerry's masterpiece.Indeed "Legend" is probably Dream's finest work to date. But still wrong.
As Paul Andrew MacLean well pointed on the liner notes of the Silva Screen gorgeous release of Jerry's complete score:"... The Dream's style is strongly rooted in Eastern traditions, while LEGEND's was rooted in Western lore of Britain and northern Europe. Their music feels stylistically out of place, such as the sampled sitar playing a quasi-pentatonic melody, while the more gritty, rock-styled cues clash with the delicate, faerie-tale quality of the film, as well as affecting the credibility of Tom Cruise's performance (the slick, RISKY BUSINESS-style of certain cues clashing with Cruise's playing a kinder, gentler, kind of teenager)."
I'm sure most of you guys' positive opinions on Tangerine Dream's "Legend" will collapse when you be able to see the original cut of the movie, with Jerry's score.
Like I said, it makes the whole world of difference...
Then you'll understand why the butchered American cut with the Dream pop score feels so outrageous for some of us.posted 06-11-2000 07:22 AM PT (US) 
egraff
Oscar® Nominee

No question...Jerry's score rules
posted 06-11-2000 10:35 AM PT (US) 
H Rocco
Oscar® Winner

I'd like to see a REAL Director's Cut of LEGEND ... even the Goldsmith-scored Japanese version I saw (same as the original European release, I think) was plainly a hack job. Until the REAL vision appears, I won't go near that picture again.Goldsmith said the original script read more like a novel than an ordinary screenplay, which was one reason he was drawn to it. I'd hope that Ridley Scott was able to capture that at SOME point ... we'll see. His preceding ALIEN and BLADE RUNNER are still masterpieces to me, so it's not like he didn't have it in him ...
posted 06-11-2000 10:43 AM PT (US) 
Darth Fart

Oscar® Winner

Ridley wants to work with JG again and was asked to participate on the Legend DVD. JG's response was "No Way"The new cut of Legend is 113 minutesish long. This DVD is going to be awesome.
posted 06-11-2000 11:18 AM PT (US) 
Swashbuckler

Oscar® Winner

I was lucky enough to catch a bootleg of the European version of Legend, and, while it was horribly panned and scanned, is a much better film than the American version.However, I still think most of the problems of the film remain. It is easier, however, to ignore them given that the music carries the film so well (yes, I said the music carries the film).
Apparently, however, even the European release of the film is trunucated, with several portions (most noticably one of the score's stand-out moments, the "Fairy Dance") being cut out of the film in a most ham-fisted manner.
I hope that this version of the film works better than either previous version, but even if it doesn't, the DVD will be worth owning for the synergy between film and score and the fantastic Panavision imagery that Scott came up with for the film. An isolated score track would be wonderful.
posted 06-11-2000 01:03 PM PT (US) 
Rang
Oscar® Winner

At one time I owned the Silva release of Goldsmith's score (I no longer do), getting it on reputation alone. While it had some interesting moments and was finely crafted (nothing unusal about that for a Goldsmith score), I was largely unimpressed. Surprisingly, it seemed rather ordinary to me, even with the innovative use of electronics and its sublime evocation of Scott's film. Unlike many, I simply wasn't drawn into Goldsmith's musical landscape for this one.I've seen the American release with Tangerine Dream's score, and I thought it contributed effectively in spots from what I remember (I haven't seen it in some time, and really have no wish to see it anytime soon).
Earlier this year, a friend of mine graciously loaned me his copy of the Japanese version that contained Goldsmith's score (he's a big fan of Goldsmith). This gave me the oppotunity to reassess Goldsmith's work in the context of the film, and also to see which score worked better. Like I said, I really had no problems with Tangerine Dreams work in the film, but Goldsmith's score seemed to be much more intricately associated with the fairy-tale world of LEGEND, being more unpretentious and complimentary. To some extent, this was exactly what Tangerine Dream did, but less successfully.
While I'm not really interested in reacquiring Goldsmith's score again, and don't have an interest in getting Tangerine Dream's score, both support the dreadful film effectively in their own way. Both scores are the best thing about the film, but Goldsmith's stands out more.
posted 06-11-2000 02:22 PM PT (US) 
Swashbuckler

Oscar® Winner

I do have to say that I bought the Silva album on reputation as well, and it took me quite a bit of time to warm up to the score. In fact, my first reaction to hearing the "Main Title/The Goblins" was "what the hell did I just buy?"However, as time went on, I gave it a few more listens here and there, each time picking up new elements that I really enjoyed. Eventually, I found myself humming the Unicorn motif to myself, or the "My True Love's Eyes" theme. I began to listen to it all the time. Now it is one of the MiniDiscs I take with me everywhere.
One of my favorite motifs is the heroic theme that Goldsmith wrote, not so much for the melodic line but for the orchestration, with the French horn quoting the theme with the wrenching strings underneath.
All I can say is, give the score another chance.
posted 06-11-2000 08:43 PM PT (US) 
egraff
Oscar® Nominee

I can vividly remember my first exposure to LEGEND. It was late 1986 and LEGEND had already come and gone. A friend had ordered the UP-ART lp and made me a tape. I had put it on as background music to some work I was doing, but as the first cut, "My True Love's Eyes" began it just transfixed me and I listened for the next 45 minutes completely caught up in a fantasy world from a film I had never seen. I've had very few experieces with film music quite like that. It has been a favorite of mine ever since.posted 06-11-2000 09:00 PM PT (US) 
Pete M

Oscar® Winner

I've actually got the Goldsmith version on video (living in the UK is good for some things), & it's certainly an improvement on the Dream version, but the cuts (around 20 mins I think) really hurt the film. I'd love to see a restored directors cut, but until then, at least I can appreciate some of Goldsmith's score in it's rightful place.
posted 06-12-2000 04:08 AM PT (US) 
Nicolai P. Zwar

Oscar® Winner

I have seen three versions of LEGEND so far, none of them were all that great:1) The European version with Goldsmith's score.
Sadly, the European version - while it is longer than the American one - is just as botched up. Too many people who messed around with this thing, I guess. Goldsmith's music is there, but big chunks of it are not used the way Goldsmith intended it.2) The American version with Tangerine Dreams' score. The shortest version of the movie, and even more butchered than the European version. However, I think the music by Tangerine Dream works quite well the way it is. It simply has the unfortunate faith to be be constantly compared to what may well be one of the most famous ever rejected scores by a "legendary" composer.
3) An American network version of the movie. Now this one was the worst of all. It's basically the American version with parts of the European version edited back in to make it longer. As a result, that version has original music from Tangerine Dream and Jerry Goldsmith as well as the temp track chunks of PSYCHO II. Yuck... what a melange of music that one has... even musically less aware viewers probably note the stylistic breaks in this version.
Whatever a director's cut may bring, it can be only better than whatever is out there already.
posted 06-12-2000 05:08 AM PT (US) 
Bel366

Oscar® Winner

Years ago, I picked up the Moment LP for the Goldsmith score and was amazed. I too like both scores, but prefer the Goldsmith one.I have seen the bootleg of the Japanese laserdisc and while the film is still far from great, it has a much different "feel" than the hacked-up version. The DVD release may be the title to make me finally get a player.
posted 06-12-2000 06:59 AM PT (US) 
Rang
Oscar® Winner

Perhaps someday I will, Swashbuckler, but after seeing the Japanese version with Goldsmith's score, I'm pretty content without it. I certainly don't hate it, but it just didn't do much for me. That other Goldsmith score (THE SECRET OF N.I.M.H.) which is frequently mentioned alongside LEGEND is much more to my liking.posted 06-12-2000 03:08 PM PT (US) 
Swashbuckler

Oscar® Winner

No arguments there. The Secret of N.I.M.H. is fantastic.
posted 06-13-2000 06:35 PM PT (US) 
DANIEL2
unregistered
As a movie, LEGEND is excruciatingly inept…in my opinion…..the sort of movie that can surely only appeal to a minute section of society. However, score-wise the movie engendered two interesting musical creations.Briefly, whereas Goldsmith’s work as a ‘film score’ is okay, I much prefer Tangerine Dream’s synthesizer-heavy ‘new age-ish’ musical accompaniment in the MOVIE. Having said that, I believe Goldsmith’s work on LEGEND to work much more successfully as ‘album’ music away from the movie (as far as movie music can succeed away from its intended medium) than Tangerine Dream’s admittedly effective scoring. This is one of those cases of good MUSIC not necessarily equating to good SCORING (and vice versa)…..though as I have said, I believe both Goldsmith’s and Tangerine Dream’s LEGEND work to be meritorious (though not classic) as film score, and from a purely musical standpoint….indeed, it just goes to show YET AGAIN, that the poorest of movies can ‘inspire’ musical scores of an acceptable quality.
As to Goldsmith’s LEGEND, some have described it as this composer’s ‘Magnum opus’, whereas others have been rather less impressed by the romantic/impressionist fusion that Goldsmith provided. Certainly Goldsmith’s work is on a grand scale….not only does he provide orchestra, choir, solo voice, choreographed sequences and electronics in abundance, there is also a vast array of thematic material….some of it inspired, some of it extremely derivative of Ravel and Debussy (to name but two)….but that’s no problem, GOOD ‘FILM’ MUSIC IS GOOD ‘FILM’ MUSIC, wherever it comes from. In addition, of all of Goldsmith’s film-scores, his work on LEGEND one would think to be an unlikely candidate for rejection (if only partial)….not that Goldsmith is particularly prone to rejection.
Goldsmith’s LEGEND album is definitely worth a listen….in fact, many listens. This is one of the few soundtrack albums in existence, in my opinion, that is sufficiently ‘deep’ to provide good reason alone for repeated listenings.
Finally, good though it is, Goldsmith’s LEGEND doesn’t even approach his masterful SECRET OF NIMH.
posted 06-18-2000 09:42 AM PT (US) 
SPOR

Oscar® Winner

I'll be receiving my copy in about a week...I'll let you know.Bye the bye, I would draw a strong parallel between Goldsmith's score to Legend and Star Trek: TMP...both are extremely top heavy constructs which require more than a casual hearing. Because the palette Goldsmith draws from is so thick with colour and virtuousity, he ultimately defies the comfortable standards of linearity we generally associate with a soundtrack recording. This may, to some degree, explain the preference many have toward his Secret of NIMH.
[This message has been edited by SPOR (edited 18 June 2000).]
posted 06-18-2000 03:59 PM PT (US) 
André Lux

Oscar® Winner

Funny. I always tought that "Legend" was among those untouchable scores which everybody understand it as a masterpiece...
Anyway, I don't see many similarities between "Legend" and "Secret of NIMH", except that both are outstanding scores for fantasy movies.
In fact, while "NIMH" is 100% pure underscore, relying much more on textures and independent motifs for each scene, "LEGEND" carries the movie all the way, being an active part of it - reinforced by the fact that the characters even sing togheter with the music, becoming the score a new character in the movie, being sometimes the only thing that makes you understand what's going on (like when the Unicorn's forgiving Cruise's character).
Of course, for those who never saw the European version with Jerry music this probably won't make any sense.
But, along with Tim Curry impressive performance and Alex Thompson breathtaking cinematography, Goldsmith's score is among the highlights of the history of cinema.André
posted 06-19-2000 03:51 PM PT (US) Old Infopop Software by UBB
