I find it astonishing that film music, as perhaps the only music genre in the world, appeals to such a wide audience, age-wise: from the virginal, young teen (10-> ) to the experienced, refined geezer( ) (65-> ).

Now, of course part of the explanation is the fact that this music is so closely attached to another medium, film, and seeing as the latter is - currently - the all-dominant commercial entertainment form, anything linked to that is bound to have a wide target audience.

Another aspect of it is of course the range in taste - a virginal teen is less inclined to love obscure 40's war movie scores as the experienced geezer is to love THE ROCK (nothing wrong with that score, BTW).

But are there any other reasons - perhaps, and hopefully, MUSICAL - why film music hits home run with such a wide age group? Is film music, as opposed to the "generation gap"-inducing rock and pop, the ultimate, universal music form (that can create world piece and harmony for....ok, I'll stop.)?

This board should proove as a manifestation of this theory. I'm sure some posters could be grandfathers (or mothers) to others in here.

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Is it at all relevant or interesting?

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Thor, your background information threads are ALWAYS interesting.

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But are there any other reasons - perhaps, and hopefully, MUSICAL - why film music hits home run with such a
wide age group? Is film music, as opposed to the "generation gap"-inducing rock and pop, the ultimate, universal
music form (that can create world piece and harmony for....ok, I'll stop.)?

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Well becuause film music hits classical (Goldsmith, Williams) for the old geezers and rock and pop for the teen (Zimmer, Armstrong)

So you see there are many varieties of film music for everyone to enjoy.

Now I myself am caught inbetween becuase I admire the old geezer scores alot and listen to them on almost a regular basis, but I also admire the newer stuff that I listen to just as much! What does that make me??

I think it was Joan who once mentioned BEN HUR and how (her daughters felt?) it would be unappropriate for that score to be fitted into a recent film (like GLADIATOR). But is the BEN HUR score simply good because it's old? And in that case, are there any "sensibilities" in that score that makes it superior to recent outings in the genre? Is it true that the older people interested in film music hail the old scores simply because they belong to a past they strongly identify with (esp. emotionally)? Couldn't that be said of the younger people as well? Does this reflect TASTE in any way?

Why is it that, judging by the differences sketched above, film music is still considered ONE genre musically?

Jesus Christ, I'm asking more questions than I have time to answer...

...but what I'm aiming at here, is a dive into the psychology of film music connaiseurs, I guess. I'm very curious as to what relationship older people have to recent film music and why they possibly consider it inferior (and vice versa).

Or, to quit this tiring rambling and put it more bluntly:

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Originally posted by Thor:
I think it was Joan who once mentioned BEN HUR and how (her daughters felt?) it would be unappropriate for that score to be fitted into a recent film (like GLADIATOR).

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There's a point in that. "Modern" films are simply different (though I haven't seen Gladiator yet). I like to take Captain Blood as an example - there aren't movies like this today, and therefore no such scores, either. Although it would sure be great fun to have some movies and scores of that type again.

Oh, and as you know, I'm 21, and Korngold died long before I was born, so...

Sure, we all know people who love film music across all ages, but as I was discussing with HardTarget, do we know of any score fans that actually reside near our individual neighborhoods (meaning not via online)? Though the recent Detroit gathering of moviemusic members at the Goldsmith concert that was the subject of another post does make me rethink this question....

These days, I listen to everything that mainstream offers (maybe except the majority of rap--not ALL of rap, I do like some) as well as film music. I don't discriminate music for the majority of the time (because certain moods require certain musical accompaniment), but I have to admit, I do discriminate against the PEOPLE listening to specific genres of music.

To me, there's a huge population of adolescents that are catered by the boy bands/teen pop divas; the college-age guys & gals that swallow rap & metal like candy; the middle age parents that love classic love/peace rockers of the 60s and 70s; and then the stereotypical elderly that just can't get enough of Sinatra or Streisand. Actually, all of the above are stereotypes, but that's besides the point. The point is that film music may be loved by all ages, but it's definitely not on the top of any specific age/generation's list.

Here at moviemusic, I believe the youngest members are around the high school age, with the oldest being--wait, I don't know that. But I would think our demographics at the site support Thor's comments.

But since we brought in AGE, what about GENDER? Why is the majority of film score listeners MALE? Of course there are women on this messageboard, but evidently they are not a majority. Does film music not appeal to the feminine mind? I would love to hear from the female members on this one.

As for Thor's comments about achieving global harmony through film music....I would LIKE to think that was true, but the fact is a lot of folks out there actually HATE film music and would be bored to death by it. MUSIC is the universal language, but even with that classification, it can't possibly hope to save the world from self-destruction. No, I am not an advocate of Armageddon or the Apocalypse, but that's the kind of thing I would say when I am feeling cyncial. The thought that film music can bring peace invites criticism--from some, although not from me because I am just trying to provide an "outsider" perspective--which would argue that such "mightier than thou" attitude condescends upon others, implying that other musical genres are inferior to film music (and in some aspects implying that listeners of film score are BETTER people than listeners of other types of music). I would LIKE to believe that, but I know it's not true. Well...it MAY BE, but I will never know....

[This message has been edited by Norman McCay (edited 07 June 2000).]

A little while ago I did a thread called Timeliness Vs.
Timelessness. I was asking whether or not a
score like North’s Spartacus would be
acceptable in a movie like today’s Gladiator. Forty years have
past, and tastes change. Would only the older generation accept
a Rozsa/North sound, or would it be embraced by all ages? There
were varying opinions on that post. And Norman, Scott posted
a thread on women and film music on Mar. 21, and a few women
and some men exited the woodwork for input. Nature,
nurture, chromosomes? I don’t know, but if any of you guys feel odd
or like a soundtrack geek, imagine me? I really don’t share my love
of film music with any of my friends. They give me that, “take your
temperature, woman,” look. (What we are is UNIQUE and SPECIAL,
not geeky.)

As far as age:
Most of us, with the exception of some child prodigies, seem to have noticed
filmscore music in our teens. What we are going to like when young is what we currently
see. For me it was Bernstein with Mag 7, Ten Commandments, and
To Kill A Mockingbird, and Rozsa with Ben Hur, King of Kings, etc. And
of course, Goldsmith westerns. Seems what is current is what we notice,
and that should be respected. It was only over time that I started to look back
through older movies at previous composers and discovered Waxman, Steiner, A.
Newman etc. And I’ve enjoyed watching the evolution of new composers like
Thomas Newman, E. Cmiral, and others. There are some young prodigies on this
Board who seem to love Korngold through Zimmer and C. Young; however, when
most young people first get into film music, they are rather fixated on one or two
composers (which may cause a generation gap), but their tastes in time
expand and evolve.

That seems to be the usual learning curve in literature, painting, poetry, and other art
forms. (Exceptions always noted.)

NP Cousins Badalamenti

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Originally posted by Norman McCay:
I think MWRguer hit the nail right on the spot with his question. Why isn't film music more popular?

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One of probably many resons:
A friend of mine who definitely matches the stereotype of somebody only listening to a very specific genre of music, once told me that he finds instrumental music boring because it has no lyrics. Without lyrics, he simply doesn't have anything to "grab". I was really stunned, because I would NEVER have thought about something like that. I mean, when I listen to music, I listen to music. Very strange indeed.

I have to say that I also prefer specific genres of music - mostly film scores and classical music. Simply because this - to me seem to be types of music which are more true to art than e.g. nearly anything of what you'll hear on the radio. That's important for me, because if I play a CD, I don't just want to have some songs playing in the background, but I want to listen to the music. So much of the music for the "general" audience is superficial, because most people don't really care for the music itself.

That doesn't mean that I hate every other kind of music. For example, I'm really a fan of the Rolling Stones. But I have to admit that I'm rather suspicious of most music that doesn't belong to my preferred genres, until I hear something that convinces me. And then there are genres, like Jazz e.g., which I find rather good, but don't really listen to.

plus the usual Goldsmith/Williams, which I've known since before grade school even.

The critic Page Cook and writers Christopher Palmer and Tony Thomas opened my ears to seeking out Herrmann, Raksin, Prokofiev, Korngold, Newman, Friedhofer, North. (ah, the 80s, when film music journalists didn't overrate every single new release as a 4 or 5 star masterpiece when it wasn't!)

Age probably doesn't mean as much... It's just part knowing what you want to hear and not settling for lesser achievements, part cultivating references. It seems really stupid to say but it did seem like there were more open spaces in which to be yourself a decade and a half ago-- you went to the media, it didn't create you.

As far as where those people's tastes end up falling, I can say that I got into film music because of Williams, Goldsmith and Horner. Exploring the possibilities in the genre as well as seeing more and more movies broadened my horizons; now I listen to tons of Herrmann, Rozsa, Korngold, Waxman and so on, and have added Bernstein, Shore, Thomas Newman and many others to my list of favorites (although I can't stand to listen to any of Horner's music anymore). All this came from watching films and liking the music. It was just luck that the current resurgence of popularity in classic film scores coincided with my own interest in them; nevertheless, I think that as younger fans grow older they will broaden their horizons as I did.

Regarding people who listen to only one genre of music, well, I met a lot of those working at the record store, and all I can say is, as Marian points out, many people only listen to music on an only superficial level, which is why so much pop music operates on that level alone.

However, I will say that it does take a certain type of perception to notice the music in many films, and that perception is the same reason why we take so much of our music-listening seriously. Does it make us better people? I don't think so, I just think that it is just something we're interested in.

NP - Ivanhoe by Miklos Rozsa

When one indicates that film music is "art" and that is why he or she listens to it, does that translate into "other genres of music have no sense of 'art' and that's why I don't listen to them?" Are other musical genres really garbage? I can't say that. This is similar to Marian's comment about jazz (forgive me, Marian, I am lost in your gender identification for I know of both men and women named Marian), and his positive critique of jazz despite not being an avid listener. Marian shares my thought on this subject, for I recognize certain works to be art, yet I never caught interest in them.

The point is this: credit must go out to anyone who produces music that ANYONE likes. For me, I might never understand rap, but someone out there likes it, and I can't argue with that or otherwise I might as well go in public and denounce every rap listener as "ignorant" of ART. This is discrimination by association that simply attaches a stereotyped personality with its counterpart hobbies.

Other nores--

I really agree with Joan's observation that numerous beginning film music listeners tend to focus particularly on one or two composers. However, in my circumstance, I would like to think it's because of financial restraint. By getting to know a specific composer and his/her style, I have more confidence in opening my wallet and buying his/her works. To me, venturing outward--however small and close-minded it may seem--my circle of composers is like gambling. I might end up with tons of scores by everyone, but with only a few that I actually like. Gradually building up is key, and that, I believe is inevitable because I am This also applies back to age.

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Originally posted by joan hue:

however, when most young people first get into film music, they are rather fixated on one or two composers (which may cause a generation gap), but their tastes in time
expand and evolve.

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I would hope that applies to everyone. I know that 10-15 years ago. I was just into the
standard, Williams and Goldsmith. Plus some of Elfman, Horner and Silvestri. Not that I knew who they where, mind you.

However, over these last 10 years, I have expanded to music I never in a thousand years
would have thought about before. Personally I only just recently started to collect Golden Age scores, since I assumed they were going to sound awful. I am glad to say I was wrong.

Though I will say my assumption, to as why more might not like film music is, people might think since it is like classical, it is boring music. I hate to say this, but that was my feelings towards it originally. Though not from experience, that was just the feeling I got from others. Too bad it took me this long to actually get into it.

Another reason I truly believe the music is looked down upon from most is, that is what most of the industry or society has told people in the past. That it is Rock/Pop, Rap and others types of music they should like. Though there was always some other genre before the current ones. Just look at how bad rock and roll was thought of, when it was first played.

IMO it has only just been recently that film music has really been out in the marketplace in huge numbers. Unfortunately it still is crapped on most the time in one way or another. From an producer deciding that *his* knowledge of the music is better than the composer and or director, and those inspired compilations. Not to mention Re-use fees.

Just so much great music, I can't believe I did not like it until just recently. And I think if people were to give it a chance, they too would love it. Am I alone in thinking that?

Regards,
Sean Robert Abbey

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Originally posted by sabbey:
Though I will say my assumption, to as why more might not like film music is, people might think since it is like classical, it is boring music. I hate to say this, but that was my feelings towards it originally. Though not from experience, that was just the feeling I got from others. Too bad it took me this long to actually get into it.

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Hm, when listening on a superficial level, much classical music may be boring. Film music, being often reminiscent of classical music, as well, but not to that extent - I think that makes it a good starting point. Interesting enough, when you start to really listen to the music, the music that gets really boring is often exactly the music that's said not to be. Why? Because when listening to good music, you'll discover something new anytime.

That's my definition of good music, I guess. I think (hope) that i "respect" everything that fullfills this "requirement", even if it's not my cup of tea.

By the way, I turn 35 this weekend and if there's one thing I've learned, it's not to waste time or money on a 'quick fix' when, with just a little patience, there is always something far more rewarding around the corner...even if it's older than I am!