Fargo at least contains one of Burwell's greatest themes, as I've said numerous times.

Joan:

I'll also add that I wouldn't want filmscores for today's movies to sound like Steiner or Korngold; the subjects don't lend themselves to those genres unless it would be an intentional mimic. Also, I wouldn't want current plays and novels to be written in Victorian or Shakespearean language. We must progress, and art forms must evolve. Some of today's composers are great, and a few leave me wanting but satisfy others. But if we limit ourselves to only today's composers, we might never hear Magnificent Seven or The Big Country, and those two scores still sound modern.

Just think that 50 years from now filmscore lovers may be saying, "Jerry G. who? Why would I want to listen to his old style?" Oh, well, I won't be around to hear that.

Let's bear in mind that from 1960 through 1969, NINE musicals were nominated for the Academy Award as Best Picture and FOUR won the damned thing. That's more musicals winning the big Oscars than in any other decade (in fact, that's more wins for the 60s than all the other decades combined).

We had West Side Story, State Fair, The Music Man, Gypsy, Jumbo, Bye Bye Birdie, The Unsinkable Molly Brown, Mary Poppins, My Fair Lady, The Singing Nun, The Pleasure Seekers, The Sound of Music, Doctor Dolittle, Thoroughly Modern Millie, Star!, Funny Girl, Oliver!, Camelot, Finian's Rainbow, Goodbye Mr. Chips, Hello, Dolly, Paint Your Wagon (was this 69?). I'm sure I'm leaving something out...but no matter. Of that lot, Mary Poppins, Doctor Dolittle, Thoroughly Modern Millie and Goodbye Mr. Chips were all original musicals. For me, the latter remains a glorious wallow...magnificent photography, brilliant performances and a quite melodic score. It was not well-reviewed and the public stayed away. In hindsight, it was wonderful, as was Finian's Rainbow which, remarkably, was directed by Francis Ford Coppola. Musicals nominated for Oscars and winning were West Side Story, My Fair Lady, The Sound of Music and Oliver! Nominated, but not selected, were The Music Man, Mary Poppins, How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying, Funny Girl, Doctor Dolittle and Hello, Dolly!

1964 was a big year for musicals, with Mary Poppins and My Fair Lady, and all the hoopla surrounding Julie Andrews' being hired for the former because she was not hired for the latter. It doesn't hurt anything that both films were magnificent. Also that year, The Unsinkable Molly Brown was a MAJOR hit at the boxoffice and quite a peppy film with a dynamo performance from Debbie Reynolds and a rather stunning debut for Harve Presnell.

What led the charge toward musical bankruptcy was the unforeseen, phenomenal and well-deserved success of "The Sound of Music." It came out of nowhere...it came at the right time...and it was the sole reason that 20th Century-Fox exists today as a powerful studio rather than being relegated to the near non-entity that MGM is today. After SOM, everyone wanted to break the bank. There were some noble tries, but most of the musicals that followed were overbearingly dull, devoid of charm and sanke, deservedly, at the box office. Millions of dollars were lost. The studios abandoned musicals because of the costs and the lack of talent that could make them work. The public did NOT...in fact, NEVER...turned its back on musicals. The public simply said NO to crappy ones. Movies have changed considerably since that time. Evita was a notoriously bad attempt to revive the genre in the 90s. The last great musical was 1972's "Cabaret" (8 Oscars). "Fiddler on the Roof" preceded it by one year and it was a wonderful film (also nominated for multiple Oscars, including Best Picture). "Grease" remains the most successful musical. Let's not forget Norman Jewison's next film after "Fiddler..." was his very interesting take on "Jesus Christ, Superstar." There were also such attempts at "Darling, Lili" and "Man of La Mancha" (great scoring effort by Rosenthal).

Let's face the REAL truth here: A musical film is as viable an idea as any other. But the costs are overwhelming. You could make a couple of the standard films we get each month for the cost of one musical. Or, you could make 20 to 30 independent films for the cost of one musical. But where's the talent? The costs of procuring Lloyd Webber or Sondheim shows would make two or three regular films. No, the REALITY is that the front offices are as devoid of imagination as they are of talent. They don't know how to recruit imagination because they don't have the imagination to recognize it. Woody Allen recognized the possibilites with "Everybody Says I Love You." This was typical Allen fare with non-singers, for the most part. I particularly liked Spielberg's homage in the opening number for "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom." And, if anything, the Disney musicals of the early 90s proved that wit, imagination and excellent music can bring in the audiences.

Give me one great musical story, gifted singers, a talented production crew and a fabulous arranger/conductor (like Williams, for instance), and I'll give you a mega-blockbuster.

As for the poll, Daniel2....how droll. Totally ignore the challenge to quantify the validity. It's like the Pepsi Challenge using only Pepsi!

Hah!

Ron

[This message has been edited by Ron Pulliam (edited 24 May 2000).]

I will say this for the old guys:
they sure as hell could dance. They could teach the Backstreet Boys a thing or two.

“if you’re as old as you claim”….charming, you make me sound like Methuselah.

What I should have said was, the 70’s was a period of unenlightenment and immaturity…RELATIVELY speaking….compared with today. The development of Western society has been moving in the right direction, I believe, ever since NATO was formed, sometimes the rate of improvement is quicker than at other times. I actually believe the Vietnam conflict hurried the process of enlightenment….as I have said before….mankind learns far more quickly from its mistakes than from its successes. I have also said on numerous occasions that the groovy funky soundtracks of the early 70’s comprised one of the few positive elements in cinema at that time…movies such as SHAFT, THE TAKING OF PELHAM 123, and the brilliant Anthony Quinn cop-saga ACROSS 110TH STREET…some of my favourite examples.

I’m sorry to hear you’re not a fan of the musical….you’re certainly not alone there. Myself, I love them…well, the good ones at least. As for the musical in the 60’s…..though there were quite a few musicals, there was nothing like the number seen in earlier decades. Most of the 60’s musicals were very very BIG…..and often not without some entertainment value. But it was GREASE in 1978, during a period in which all cinema was being dragged back on to the path toward the intelligence and enlightenment of 90’s cinema, that reinvigorated the genre.

As to 70's movies in general, sure there were some good ones, but compared with the 30's, 40's, 50's and 90's, very very few...in my opinion.

FARGO was a pretty entertaining movie….if a bit dopey….it was easygoing, though rather naïve.

‘Zimmer’s muzak’…..you must be referring to a very small portion of his work.

SEVEN….challenging? What?….like peeling potatoes.

I have read your responses with some amusement….to describe SILENCE OF THE LAMBS, SEVEN, or any of the other films you mention as challenging and thought-provoking is indeed rather humorous. In general, the work of the Coen brothers has been typical of the harmless nature of most 90’s movies…..easy to watch, and not at all taxing on the brain. And that’s what I like about 90’s movies, they’re straightforward…..they don’t preach messages, and with only a few laughable exceptions, they don’t try to shock….a futile exercise anyway….but 90’s movies do tend heavily toward political-correctness. This does mean that most 90’s movies are far less potent AND honest than they might otherwise be…..such as the somewhat enfeebled SILENCE OF THE LAMBS, LAST OF THE MOHICANS and SAVING PRIVATE RYAN….well made movies, but ultimately rather lame. However, I believe that the filmmakers of the 90’s, including the Coen brothers, have rediscovered the knack of entertaining the public to the full…a knack that the filmmakers of the 30’s and 40’s also commanded.

I too have a great liking for Carter Burwell’s work. He is a wonderful exponent of CMS….just like Zimmer, Horner, Thomas Newman and so many other modern film composers. In fact, I can think of only ONE or two film composers who don’t now successfully apply the qualities of CMS to their scores on a regular basis. As far as I’m concerned, all film composers are welcomed under the CMS umbrella….just so long as they are willing to be flexible in their approach to scoring, to give their movies exactly what they musically require based on the nature of the movie and the status of contemporary musical sensibilities.

Burwell and Zimmer, in their contrasting ways, are both excellent exponents of CMS, proof that the art of producing an APPROPRIATE (or successfully CMS) film score does not mean that any film composer need be rail-roaded. Composers of differing approach can apply their own skills to their movies….just so long as the film composer remains FLEXIBLE.

Your reference to ‘Zimmer’s muzak’ indicates either a general dislike of Zimmer’s work, or that you may be unfamiliar with most of his work. Either way, to pigeon-hole Zimmer’s output as ‘muzak’ is flawed-reasoning. Of course, he has written some music that many would class as ‘muzak’…..what composer hasn’t?….but Zimmer’s repertoire extends far beyond the confines of ‘muzak’.

Especially this one (hihihihi... see, I'm still chuckling):

quote:

---

Originally posted by DANIEL2:

You ask me to give you examples of 90’s film scoring and cinematic accomplishment…..where do I begin. 90’s film scoring and cinematic brilliance pervades contemporary society like never before….movies such as CON AIR, THE ROCK, ARMAGEDDON, TITANIC, APOLLO 13, HIGH SCHOOL HIGH, THE FUGITIVE, REMAINS OF THE DAY, SHADOWLANDS, PATRIOT GAMES, BRAVEHEART, JUNGLE FEVER, GOODFELLAS, CRIMSON TIDE, A WALK IN THE CLOUDS, TOY STORY, BABE, RESTORATION, THINNER, RANSOM, THE CRUCIBLE, SEVEN, THE NUTTY PROFESSOR, JOE’S APARTMENT, THE POSTMAN, SPAWN, MY BEST FRIEND’S WEDDING, SCREAM, COPLAND, MEN IN BLACK, THE BOXER, AS GOOD AS IT GETS…to name a very few….all massively entertaining, recalling the spirit of 30’s and 40’s Hollywood.

---

Okay, to be fair, there are a few good movies in your list, but to use words like "brilliance", "cinematic accomplishment", and list such utter drivel movies as CON AIR and ARMAGEDDON to support your claim could not have been done any better. I take it back, you should not apply for a PR job at Media Ventures, you should write for MAD Magazine!

However, so you see I'm not totally contradictory, I agree with you on some of the movies on your list. TITANIC really was a splendidly entertaining movie (and indeed a fallback to Hollywood's "golden days" of movies such as GONE WITH THE WIND or DR. ZHIVAGO).
AS GOOD AS IT GETS was delightful and original as well (and it was scored well by Hans Zimmer, too), a "romantic comedy" entry that transcended the genre by a mile.

And WOW! you even managed to include two movies that are indeed true brilliant cinematic achievements of the 1990s, two of the very best movies of the last decade, and they could hardly be further apart from each other: David Fincher's SEVEN and John Lasseter's TOY STORY. Top notch accomplishments of the silver screen!

<<Considering the relatively tiny number of musicals made during the 60's, the fact that nine of them (of variable quality) were nominated for the Academy Award as Best Picture, merely illustrates the paucity of quality movies at that time.>>

Whooo....boy! The tears are streaming down my face! I'm practically rolling on the floor at this!

I can't think of one single 90s film that is in any way superior to a large chunk of 60s films!

As for Zimmer and Burwell operating under the "same CMS umbrella" (you DO love your little affectations, don't you):

No...no-no....Burwell is a musician with musical thoughts, ideas and talent for constructing music.
Zimmer is a noise machine. I've yet to hear one single musical idea from Zimmer that stayed with me, tickled me, elevated me../

You've chosen as your hero, the ANTI-composer.

Ron

Fargo, I thought, was supposed to be a bit dopey. Accents and all. It's just a good film.

I'm no filmmaker, but I do know that Se7en was one of the best and most challenging movies I've seen. Aside the extremely dissonant, unrelenting Howard Shore music, there is the gritty cinematography.
It is a hard movie to watch, and the ending is unforgiving. I would not call it lame.
The Bone Collector is lame.

that's just me, though.

Take that, Methuselah!

There ARE a few musicals I've liked ... as obsessed with filmic form as I am, I think I have a hard time with their typical format. I adored the recent SOUTH PARK feature, which is technically a musical, and one of my favorite albums is the original cast version of Leonard Bernstein's CANDIDE, although that may be more accurately classified as an operetta ... not sure here. I saw a couple of live versions several times as a kid, and they were beautifully done.

While Mr. 2 finds the 90s the pinnacle of reinvigorated cinema, a rise which started with GREASE, I find the 90s stuck in a formulaic rut. While the formulas being put to work in the 90s might be excellent cinema, as Mr. 2 might argue, I find too many 90s films althogether similar. Scores included.

Now, this can be applied to other decades as well, especially with the classic "Golden Age" Western genre. Egads! I love the Western, but look how much it was milked. And then? Such a staple the Western had become in the 50s, the Italians arrived with spaghetti sauce and just about made a new genre within what was commonly known as a Western film.

Thinking this one out and wrapping up somewhat coherently, I once again suggest the 1960s as the best decade of movie music, as a result of the innovative deconstruction of those Golden Hollywood formulas. The 60s arrived with a few Goldens, but mostly very unique pictures, from PSYCHO to A FISTFUL OF DOLLARS. The Golden Western died, and so did the Western hero, as evidenced in movies like ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST and THE BALLAD OF CABLE HOGUE (unfortunately released in 1970, just missing the 60s!).

The variety of movie music in the early 60s was nothing like the variety of movie music written in 1969. In other words, what an original, fresh decade it was. I don't think any other decade can show this, save for the 70s, but then again, all it sounded like as 1980 rolled in was pretty singular.

I shall end for now. I look forward to your comments.

PeterK