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Topic: The Captive Audience

Bulldog
Oscar® Winner

I place my trust in many (probably not a good thing), but my faith--however little it might be--in God alone.
posted 05-17-2000 07:53 AM PT (US) 
John C Winfrey

Oscar® Winner

Boris, I agree with you. Its easy to fool most Americans on stuff like this. Everybody sees things differently. I also like to hear all sides of something and although I don't agree with many of them I like to understand where they are coming from and try to understand how they think. I am skeptical of almost everything I hear in the media these days and look behind the curtain to see what else is there and at other angles. Look what the media did to that fellow in Georgia on the bomb and the Benet family-guilty or not. Relentless. They can easily destroy anyone or spin it in any direction to propagate lots of good lies. The vast majority of Americans know little of this. Most of the people I work with know nothing of these things and could care less. That is fine, we are all interested in different things and makes the world more interesting. Best, John.
posted 05-18-2000 04:54 PM PT (US) 
Chris Kinsinger

Oscar® Winner

This is very interesting.
In Dalmatia, PA (about 30 miles north of my home), a young man who had come home from the Gulf War died of an extremely mysterious disease. He was convinced that he had been the victim of a government experiment in the Gulf. His mother & father told the local newspaper that his final words were, "Love your country; fear your government".
posted 05-18-2000 05:26 PM PT (US) 
H Rocco
Oscar® Winner

Mark Hatfield might have a thing or two to contribute to that precise argument.
posted 05-18-2000 06:49 PM PT (US) 
Boris

Oscar® Winner

Could you stand-in for him, Mr. Rocco?
posted 05-18-2000 07:48 PM PT (US) 
logied

Oscar® Winner

I don,t fear my goverment or the media or
Clinton, Gore or Bush. I do fear,
1. The ever increasing gap of haves and have
nots.
2. At no time has more money been used for
no return (profit)people are making a
living at what could be, not at what is.
3. I worked for a company that became its own
best customer, it had lots of money but
nothing of value to continue.
4. More and more people are living a life
of rent and not own, big business not big
brother almost has you and me.
5. Have you asked lately who really controls
your food?What was this tread about?
posted 05-19-2000 06:10 AM PT (US) 
Chase&August
unregistered
I think this thread is about the inner workings of the universe on a sub-molecure level, and the sudden changes one experiences after passing through an extremely thick wave of radioactive photons as they streak away from the aftermath of the explosion of Krypton.(Has a thread ever become more off-topic?)
posted 05-19-2000 06:41 AM PT (US) 
H Rocco
Oscar® Winner

I won't attempt to speak for Mark Hatfield, although he does have some pretty amazing stories which he may share with us once he returns full-time (it's taking longer than he thought, but he plans to make up for it.) But I WILL tell you that we believe that the bizarre form of cancer that claimed my father recently may have been the result of exposure to Agent Orange in Vietnam. He managed to avoid combat, but was exposed nonetheless. His doctors were fascinated that he had something this exotic at all. I started to explain this to Mark and he knew even before I finished the sentence -- "Agent Orange, right?" He was a soldier too, though not in Vietnam. I'll be curious to take a look at what remains of his left hand -- munitions accident, that one. (If this sounds morbid, it really isn't, he's perfectly adjusted to the matter, as he's already written on other threads.)NP: THE GHOST AND THE DARKNESS just ended, composed and conducted by some guy about to give a concert in Detroit that FSM doesn't mention for some reason ...
posted 05-19-2000 08:55 PM PT (US) 
Chris Kinsinger

Oscar® Winner

logied, you don't necessarily need to FEAR your government, but I certainly hope that you do not TRUST it!And I wouldn't be all that concerned with that "ever increasing gap" between the haves and the have-nots. It's not on the increase. In fact, it's always been proportionately just about the same. Today's "haves" have MORE, but so do the "have-nots". There are more rescue missions than ever to make sure they have a hot meal and a comfortable place to sleep, so that they can go right back to work pan-handling. Not a bad vocation...some of them earn more than you'd think!
posted 05-19-2000 09:32 PM PT (US) 
Boris

Oscar® Winner

The US Government continually inflates the actual number of homeless people in their ongoing effort to maximize the need for increased taxation.The homeless numbers don't even approach the two million our government would have you believe...it's in the hundreds of thousands, nationally.
posted 05-19-2000 10:04 PM PT (US) 
John C Winfrey

Oscar® Winner

Boris, I tend to agree with you on most of what you said. I know in my travels around the country over the last 30 years, especially recently, I have seen and met a lot of homeless folks. While in Seattle/Tacoma area in Sept. 1991 I saw 100's of them in travels around the area. They were everywhere and I tried talking to a lot of them but they were suspicious, except the two or three that asked me for money or food. There are a lot of them. Here in Lawrence we have generally 50-100 from time to time and lots of passers-through here wandering around the country. Far too many. Best, John.
posted 05-20-2000 04:48 PM PT (US) 
Boris

Oscar® Winner

John, please do not mistake my comments for any lack of compassion. I care for homeless people; I support several local rescue missions who aid our homeless 24/7. I give my money to street people regularly, in spite of the criticism that I receive for doing so.
But what I have said is true. The US Government inflates the actual figures in order to reap more tax dollars.
I realize that there is a healthy percentage of homeless people who are making a lucrative career panhandling. There are some who are homeless by their own choice. I care for them, I give to them, but I do not pity them.
And I see no compelling evidence to indicate that there is a larger proportionate percentage of homeless people today than there ever has been.
You say there are "far too many"...I say "ONE is too many!"
But then, one alcoholic is one too many.
One drug addict is one too many.
One abused child is one too many.
One battered wife is one too many.
I could continue...[This message has been edited by Boris (edited 20 May 2000).]
posted 05-20-2000 08:32 PM PT (US) 
Lou Goldberg

Oscar® Winner

I really don't know how this thread went from the possible role of the film composer in communicating something motivational to an audience to all this talk on government and politics--but hey, so what?I'm with Boris on this--our government has been exposed so many times that I'm sure what we don't know would give us all heart attacks. I have to admit I've stuck my head in the sand most of my life--worked, paid taxes, watched movies, minded my own business, hoping I was free and lucky enough not to run afoul of big brother. But every day it becomes increasing obvious how freedoms are still eroding in this country and how information is just manipulative disinformation. The whole thing makes me sick.
NP: Nothing right now but The Parallax View, Three Days of the Condor, The Manchurian Candidate, or All The President's Men would all sound pretty good right now.
posted 05-21-2000 12:09 AM PT (US) 
JJH

Oscar® Winner

I find it interesting how everyone is leary and hateful of government, yet no one does anything about it.
Like they said in the Matrix: "Billions of people just living out their miserable little lives."I was a teaching assistant in the political science department of my university for 2 years, and the ignorance of some of these college students is ABSOLUTELY amazing. Of course, the ignorance of some GRADUATE students (e.g., my ex-girlfriend --oh, I could tell you a couple decent stories!) is also amazing. I think I had only 2 politically aware students the whole time, and both would talk you're ear off if you got them started (both interestingly, were leftist; different classes, different semesters).
It's these last 2 years that have REALLY taught the value of knowing WHY you believe something. So, you have an opinion. Can you back it up without calling people bad names, or using derogatory adjectives? What is the foundation of your belief system? Is it something someone told you, or do you have cold, hard facts that you found out yourself?
NP -- nothing right now.posted 05-21-2000 06:55 AM PT (US) 
DANIEL2
unregistered
There does seem to be an inordinate amount of scepticism about Western government at this thread. That’s fine….it is quite right that ‘the people’ question the actions and motives of our leaders. However, the very fact that our leaders ALLOW us to question them is surely enough to placate the most paranoid within our Western societies.Whilst government continues to serve THE PEOPLE, ‘the people’ can surely rest easy. It is when THE PEOPLE are made to serve government that we can all start to worry. The current balance is right, in my opinion…and the correct balance continues to solidify. A healthily cynical attitude from the people, and a free press, for all its faults…will ensure that. But remember, our leaders are only human. They are talented human beings though….they’ve got where they are on merit…sometimes they have selflessly served the PEOPLES’ interests, sometimes they figuratively ‘stab’ someone in the back….that’s politics….that’s life. The difference is, government today, rather than abusing its people, actually works for them…government is peopled by ‘public servants’…..however, the politicians, for all of their pains and hard work, should be given a little slack, as has Clinton. Politicians are just like the rest of us, except they’ve got the gumption to actually put their energies where their mouth is. I actually respect that. And that is the beauty of a meritocracy….he who has the ability and the desire, often reaps the reward.
For all of those people who bemoan the state of modern society, remember, it was only one hundred years ago, in Victorian England, that the STATE sanctioned child prostitution, kids were working down coal mines, Catholics were barred from standing as members of parliament, it is said that one in five women were involved in prostitution at one time or another, the vast majority didn’t have running water (let alone flush-toilets)….AND, most people went to bed hungry. It was the same in Victorian America…. New York’s Tammany Hall matched England’s corrupt establishment, an establishment that perpetuated the plight of the poor. It was only thirty years ago that homosexual practice, here in Britain, was illegal.
Some ask, ‘who controls the food?’….at least people today, even the most vulnerable in our Western societies, are able to sleep on a full stomach.
It is my belief, as an atheist, that the completely random forces of nature gave birth to mankind, and mankind in turn created a God in THEIR image….in fact, I believe NATURE is ‘evil’.
Far from there being a ‘grand design’, drawn up by some mythical being, ie in the case of Christians Jehovah, mankind’s emergence on this planet was a complete ‘freak of nature’…..it wasn’t pre-ordained, it just happened. The original ‘higher’ Egyptian civilizations created ‘Gods’ to give purpose to their lives, and meaning to the unknown….the Anglo-Saxon world then seized this mythological weapon and, up until recently, used it to stifle enterprise and to salve consciences....I mean, to some, any evil, no matter how despicable, is okay so long as it is done in the name of God.
However….despite the bad publicity Christianity has received, I believe its overall effect has actually been positive. Though based on the absurd premise that Jehovah appeared amongst mankind as Jesus the Christ, the fundamental articles of the New Testament have formed the moral basis of Western Civilization….though the signing of the Magna Carta was I believe a more tangibly important step down the long road to today’s tolerant and sophisticated ‘Western’ society…..ie the fundamental rights of an Englishman.
During the past fifty years, Western Civilization has reached unprecedented heights of peace, harmony, goodwill and progression….allowing technological advance, social maturity, global harmonization, and above all, man’s ability (through wealth and ‘quality’ time) to examine his own psyche….and his own ‘purpose’. This has given rise to a wave of sophistication and enlightenment, a wave that is gathering strength all the while. In its wake we have seen a rejection of traditional religion….this replaced by a more reasoned, dispassionate, intelligent and common sense understanding and respect for mankind’s place in the universe.
Yes….the universe. A big, dark, dead place…save for the tiny specks of matter scattered across the void like a few grains of sand in an ocean of nothingness…and one of those grains of sand is home to mankind.
To explain mankind’s origins in romantic terms, one becomes necessarily enmeshed in religious ideals. However, myself, rather than relating to the word of the Old Testament, prefer the ideas of the ancient Babylonians when it comes to THE creation. Their fundamental belief, which I find far more compelling, is that the Creator, or God, is basically EVIL, not good.
Christendom’s cherished religious ideals of good winning out over evil, in the shape of the good Jehovah overwhelming the powers of Beelzebub, or whatever you want to call him, is fanciful to say the least…..and completely at odds with the evidence provided all around us in the REAL world. Disease, famine, murder, mutilation, perversion….need I go on. No…the Babylonians believed that the ‘Creator’ was EVIL.
And, in a sense I agree with those sentiments. It is MANKIND who harnesses and triumphs over the EVIL forces of NATURE. Let’s face it, everything is against us…..disease…..man is conquering that….mankind’s base animal instincts….man is taming them….even ageing….mankind will soon cure the greatest of human ills. In other words, the goodness (or rationality) that is in man is triumphing over the evil (or chaos) in nature. Of course, personally speaking, I see mankind’s existence as a complete fluke…there is no good and evil….there is only existence.
It is in our current climate of sophistication, toleration and enlightenment that filmmakers, such as Stone and Kubrick are allowed to wade in with their size nines. Their feeble attempts to ostensibly create ‘message’ movies, whilst really trying to manipulate the innate voyeuristic tendencies locked away in man’s subconscious, are now met with unrestrained hoots of derision…..though some misguided souls STILL rate these filmmakers as more than just purveyors of miserable humdrumness.
Mankind has CREATED a God, Jehovah, who has been a mere instrument of man’s progression from superstition to enlightenment, and mankind has also created the artificial circumstances in which moviemakers like Oliver Stone and Stanley Kubrick can thrive…..two of the most pro-Establishment-orientated and conformist men of the 20th century. By attempting to touch the voyeur, they have merely underlined mankind’s weaknesses…..weaknesses that have essentially been overcome….or at least are being overcome…..so Kubrick, rather than being visionary, is at best stating the obvious, and the pity is, SOME people have fallen for this ‘smoke and mirrors’ trick…..this exercise in arch-conservatism.
It is Stone and Kubrick who are the conservative ones….the WASPs of the late twentieth century….the men who want to cling to mankind’s base instincts…..but only in their SAFE and artificial way. These men didn’t/haven’t had the courage, or the sense, to recognize mankind’s ascent from the baseness of the past….they are the true ‘stuck-in-the-muds’, they are the epitome of what is SAFE….they are to the film world what Meat Loaf is to the world of music…..ultra-conformist, and utterly SAFE.
So, these small talents, through their own weak and conventional work, epitomise mankind’s weakness. This struggle within man, good versus evil, instinct versus reason, is best illustrated by Robert Louis Stevenson’s brilliant and insightful Dr Jeykll and Mr Hyde.
ALL of the good and ALL of the evil in the WORLD, is within man….within man’s subconscious. The animal kingdom is driven by instinct….dispassionate and without design. Mankind, through self-awareness, has recognized, though not yet quite conquered, the struggle of base animal instinct and intelligent reasoning within each human…..beautifully explored in the tale of the good Dr Jeykll of Victorian London.
The future of mankind is dear to most hearts…but remember, within a mere fifty years, most visitors to this message board will be dead….never to regain consciousness….dead FOR ALL TIME.
However, the people of the not so distant future, will have the ability to ‘live’ for eternity….they will also have developed the maturity and intelligence to 'live' for an eternity...they will have the capability to preserve their consciousness within a machine…..but for US, it is too late…….
posted 05-21-2000 12:33 PM PT (US) 
DANIEL2
unregistered
Much as I welcome a ‘free’ press, the downside of this is the occasional intrusion into peoples’ private lives, aswell as an awful lot of sensationalist journalism. The intrusion is unfortunate, the sensationalism is hilarious.I do find it interesting, that it is sometimes the people who are sceptical of government who are also scathing of the press. The way I see it, the ‘free press’ is one of the guarantees of an honest government…basically. Of course, there will always be times when a politician influences the press, and probably vice versa….but generally, I believe you cannot have a stable, fair and moderate government WITHOUT a free press, and the reverse is probably true. Of course, I do happen to believe that, within reason, our press is ‘free’, and our governments basically fairly honest….though it seems not everyone is of this opinion. Let’s just say the governments of North America and Northern Europe are the most moderate and constructive this planet has ever had. Mind you, if we knew everything that went on behind closed doors at the White House or in Whitehall, we might have a different opinion….but it’s all relative…..and the governments of today are patently working FOR the people, not the other way round.
One instance of amusing journalistic sensationalism is the ridiculous attempts the British media makes to hood-wink the public into thinking mainstream films are full of ‘titillating’ sex and violence…..but I suppose after all, the British invented ‘sleaze journalism’. The publication of such fiction is simply an excuse to stick something on the front page of their newspapers that they think is pandering to the voyeur in its readership…..thereby selling lots of newspapers…..and at the same time helping sell the movie by whipping up a frenzy of anticipation based on misplaced notoriety. In practise, whether the movie is the comical GOODFELLAS, the lame SHOWGIRLS, or the light-hearted INTERVIEW WITH THE VAMPIRE, or the simply boring EYES WIDE SHUT…..when you eventually see the movie you wonder what all the fuss was about. Filmmakers themselves…..despite becoming increasingly sophisticated these days…..do still sometimes fall into the trap of believing that a cynical attitude in their movies is somehow being ‘with it’ or ‘cool’……well it’s certainly being politically-correct……and I’m afraid the ‘anti-establishment’ stance attempted by some movies is simply conforming to today’s society’s conventions…..there is nothing more conventional….or indeed ‘establishment-orientated’ than the ‘rebel’……the tame LAST OF THE MOHICANS (1992) and INCOGNITO are proof of that.
Take an old-fashioned, ultra-conformist, and mega-politically correct movie like RED CORNER. A fairly entertaining movie…..with a typically, and seemingly effortlessly, excellent score from the superb Thomas Newman…..rich in musical colour and CMS. Here, it was the establishment again…the American embassy officials this time, who were just as much slime-balls as the corrupt elements of the Chinese authorities. This tiresomely pseudo-cynical attitude…..”if it’s anti-establishment it’s cool”…..is gradually being replaced by a far more mature and broad-minded attitude from filmmakers these days…..an attitude that more accurately reflects society’s ever maturing sensibilities. Of course, a certain amount of cynicism is a necessary and important element of today’s cinema and society….and SHOULD always be…..but filmmakers are beginning to realize that any ATTEMPT at striking an anti-establishment attitude, just for the sake of it, comes across too often as a simple CONTRIVANCE….a TOO obvious attempt to manipulate the audience…..and today’s increasingly sophisticated audiences are wise to this….just like they are wise to misplaced media-hype about a movies supposed sex and violence content. How many times have we read newspaper articles promising unprecedented and uncompromising scenes of sex and violence in an upcoming movie in an attempt to sell their newspapers and sell the movie….and then you see the movie…..be it the comical GOODFELLAS or lame SHOWGIRLS…..and you wonder what all the fuss was about. When will the media realize that the public KNOW that mainstream cinema doesn’t provide titillation (unless you’ve led a very sheltered life)……and anyone who has watched NATURAL BORN KILLERS and says they admired it…..is probably saying that just because ‘everyone’ else is saying they liked it….because it is SEEN as being ‘cool’…. in actual fact, all these misguided souls are doing is conforming to convention. If people want pornography they can find it with very little effort ‘under the counter’ at their local video rental outlet or ‘adult shop’ or they can just ask a friend…..or surf the net for that matter. If people want sex they just have to drive down City Road (Bristol)….stop at some traffic lights and your car (or dustcart) will soon be surrounded by prostitutes. If people want drugs they’ve only got to ask at their local bar or public house or ask a friend. If people want violence they can ‘obtain’ a snuff movie, or simply ‘pick a fight’ in a Bristol public house on a Saturday night.
WHEN WILL THE MEDIA REALIZE THIS?
I was just looking at some discarded copies of THE DAILY MIRROR… a formerly left-wing British newspaper…...blowing about the windy alleys of Bristol…..not quite the blizzard of newspapers seen in the laughable BLADE, I might add.
The first one I picked off of the sidewalk……the front page was all about teenage sex……more SUPPOSED titillation for it’s middle-aged, middle-brow, middle-class, middle-England readership…….and the next copy, I found it trapped in some iron railings outside of the Corn Exchange, was headlined ‘Winslet UNCOVERED’.
And they call this a newspaper?
The secondary headline – ‘I WATCHED MY NEW FILM: OH MY GOD IT’S PORN’.
The paper goes on to say, I quote – “It is by her own admission, a risky career move. And when Kate Winslet went to a screening of her EROTIC new film even she was shocked”.
Later…….”HOLY SMOKE is the story of a cult member and the man sent to save her. But Kate says it was the intensity of the sex scenes rather than the sight of herself walking around naked in the desert that made her blush”.
A little later………”The hardest challenge the Reading-born (Royal Berkshire, England) actress faced, was having to pee while standing naked in front of the film crew”.
Pulllleasssseeeee.
Who do these newspapers think they are kidding?
Anyway, you can read Ebert’s typically reasoned and dispassionate destruction of this tired ‘wannabe-shocking’ ultra-politically correct movie…..a movie that whole-heartedly failed at the box office…..despite the attempted media manipulation of today’s society with promises of titillation….perhaps newspapers, magazines and television will begin to realize that today’s sophisticated society is evolving beyond such infantile reasonings.
Here is an unfortunate viewer’s reaction to watching HOLY SMOKE – “One gets the feeling that the writers' only goal was to shock as many of us viewers as possible in one big swoop down. Walking out of the theatre made me feel like a cute, innocent rabbit (Ahem!) who was suddenly been plucked out of some idyllic field by a terrible eagle on it's way to being fed to the eaglets.
Oh! And seeing Keitel's be-pimpled butt didn't help much either.”Another intelligent spectator commented – “What is so sexually attractive about a woman ****ing on herself? Is there some kind of smell that attracts men?! Secondly, I don't think I'll ever see a movie with Harvey Keitel in it again. After seeing a few movies of his I now realize that I don't like his acting style. He seems very false, too contrived, and always the same. One of the things about him that really turned me off is a lovey-dovey look he repeatedly gave to Kate Winslet's character. I cringed everytime he did it. It made me want to puke.”
Well, some people gain sexual pleasure from far more obscure practises than the above, but yes, it’s about time Keitel was exposed for the one-dimensional and unconvincing ‘talent’ that he is……just like Joe Pesci has already been consigned to obscure history.
All in all however, I believe the balance in the press is just about right. Some believe that the press isn’t ‘free’ enough, but most are of the opinion the press often goes too far…..but that’s the PRICE we pay for a FREE press…..and I for one think it’s worth it.
posted 05-22-2000 01:16 PM PT (US) 
H Rocco
Oscar® Winner

Daniel, I wonder if you've read the book "Lies, Damned Lies," a level-headed account (published mid-late 1980s) of the rise of the British tabloid press, especially as proponed (is that a word?) by Murdoch and (if I remember right) Lord Beaverbrook.We've had the Murdoch-run New York Post for years now, it's not as outrageous as the craziest of the British or Italian (or for that matter Japanese) tabloids, but it IS compulsively readable, and I think its metro coverage is the best in the city. Perhaps in spite of Murdoch, but I well recognize his thumbprints all over it.
As far as the free press, of course I'm in favor of it. But it occurs to me that, just as a city gets the police force it deserves, so also does a nation get the press corps it deserves. I must admit to a complete fascination with the growing tabloidization and sensationalization of American television news -- the "legitimate" kind! -- it was the NETWORKS who put shows like "Hard Copy" and "Current Affair" out of business, simply by adopting their tactics. The checkbook now rules across the board. And witness the preposterous spectacle of Leonardo DiCaprio drafted by ABC News to "interview" President Clinton. (Witness, worse yet, the spectacle of Clinton going along with it.)
Incidentally, I must now retract my months-earlier assertion that Hillary Clinton could never win the Senatorship in New York State. Now that Rudy Giuliani has had to bow out, it seems all too likely that she WILL win. Although I never thought Giuliani was the ideal candidate either -- one rule of being an effective senator has it that one must learn to "play well with others," and this is something the Emperor Giuliani has never learned to do. Paradoxically, now that he's fallen ill, he seems to have grown an ounce of humility. Even if he lives, though, the chance has passed him by. His evident successor for the election, Rick Lazio, is an unknown factor.
NP: ABC Eyewitness News (local, not national -- they use the same trademark in Los Angeles, though -- their logo music, in both markets, used to be Schifrin's arrangement of Stravinsky for the road-building sequence from COOL HAND LUKE -- I was amazed the first time I saw the picture. "Whoa, where's Bill Beutel?")
Oh yes Daniel, your quotes from newspaper readers are all too typical. I'm reminded of a quote from Evelyn Waugh's "Scoop" -- and here I paraphrase just from memory: "All writers of Letters to the Editor are chronically disaffected." My favorite in recent years was one to the Daily News that observed that a new city tax would no doubt be passed on to the Post Office "to finance their weapons of mass destruction." I clipped that one. I can prove it.
[This message has been edited by H Rocco (edited 22 May 2000).]
posted 05-22-2000 03:04 PM PT (US) 
John C Winfrey

Oscar® Winner

Boris, agreed. JW.
posted 05-22-2000 04:36 PM PT (US) 
Boris

Oscar® Winner

Thanks, John.
posted 05-22-2000 07:43 PM PT (US) 
Chris Kinsinger

Oscar® Winner

JJH, you said: "I find it interesting how everyone is leary and hateful of government, yet no one does anything about it."You're wrong.
There are many of us who are doing everything that we can to make a positive difference in society.
The government may limit the average citizen to the power of the voting booth, but the government is not the final authority in all things.posted 05-22-2000 08:24 PM PT (US) 
Chris Kinsinger

Oscar® Winner

"the absurd premise that Jehovah appeared amongst mankind as Jesus the Christ"Daniel Cunningham, I may find it difficult to love you sometimes, but I do anyway. Living proof that Jesus is alive. When He was executed by the Romans (a documented historical fact), He shed His blood for you and for me.
That's how much He loves you even today. When He was suffering on that cross, He was thinking of YOU, Daniel.
posted 05-23-2000 11:33 AM PT (US) 
DANIEL2
unregistered
For J Little[Message edited by DANIEL2 on 11-14-2000]
posted 11-14-2000 02:01 PM PT (US) Old Infopop Software by UBB
