My twins are 24, and in their lifetime a Roman Epic movie has not been made.
(Very few westerns were created during these past 24 years.) What few Roman
OR ancient history movies they have seen were from videos or AMC.
They haven’t seemed terribly interested in the SPARTACUS-BEN HUR-
TEN COMMANDMENTS-THE ROBE kind of movies and have only watched
a few snippets. I don’t think Heston’s type of acting appealed to them. But
put Russell Crowe in front of them, and they are first in line. They are a
90’s generation, and although they’ve heard my Credence Clearwater/ Rolling
Stone sounds forever, they buy their current favorites, not mine.

Now I’m not referring to the young filmscoreholics on this Board. All of us,
regardless of age, appreciate the great Golden notables like Korngold, Tiomkin,
Steiner, Waxman, etc. I was raised in the 60’s on the Goldsmith/Bernstein sounds.
Music from a Korngold movie from the 30s, while music to MY ears, does sound
different to me from the movies I viewed. I’m sure to today’s average movie
attendant, Rozsa’s music, and even some of Jarre’s “big budget movie” scores, may
sound rather old fashion to them. (And I adore Rozsa.) Perhaps that is why
R. Scott chose Zimmer for GLADIATOR. (Haven’t heard the score, so
I have no opinion about its merit.) He wanted to attract a whole new generation
to a type of movie that hasn’t been made in their lifetime, so score it with their
sounds. Just a theory.

So I sit here and wonder if to the average movie attendant who is not into scores
but into movies as a whole, would reject a Rozsa clone score for an epic
or if he/she would embrace it as I would? Then I ponder whether or
not music is transcendent across time to the GENERAL populace. However,
when I listen to John Williams’ scores to the first Star Wars which is rich in
Golden age tradition and note how many new filmscore lovers that music
engendered, I discover I just don’t have a definite answer. Do you?

NP Ben Hur..5/5

It might be embraced by audiences, but there are very few composers working today capable of writing a score like that making it a relatively moot point.

Williams could do it. But he only does a few carefully chosen projects at a time. Jerry Goldsmith could do it, but considering the bad blood between Ridley Scott and Jerry Goldsmith I seriously doubt if it was even considered. There may be a few others out there, but they escape my memory.

I am sure that Ridley Scott went with a composer that he is comfortable with.

I have no real plans to go see Gladiator so, for now, I've no idea how the score and the images are going to match up. I love Stewart Copeland but I think it was a mistake to match his synths with the period images of Wide Sargasso Sea.

Honestly, most scores are still symphonic. I can't see a modern audience of youngsters objecting to fanfares and march music in a film set in ancient Rome. And, if you don't give people what they expect, it can throw them--case in point, Goldeneye, where Eric Serra didn't provide the Barry-Bond sound and people objected.

Ever the mix and matcher--I'm going to dig up Ben-Hur or Fall of the Roman Empire on VHS here, turn the sound down and play Crimson Tide or The Matrix with it and see how it turns out.

NP: Two English Girls (Georges Delerue)

The "young audience" of today has had absolutely NO PROBLEM accepting the music of John Williams in his Korngold/Waxman/Newman vein, i.e. the Star Wars scores.

A better question is why on earth would anyone use "the sounds of today" for every type of film? There are many scores out there that are interchangeable with others regardless of genre for which they are written.

In point of fact, much of that music has been interchanged from one score to another without so much as an apology or credit to the original composer.

Ridley Scott has absolutely NO batting record of having any musical taste whatsoever. He is a striking visualist, but he has yet to find the perfect composer to complement his vision.

"Gladiator" will make a ton of money, win several Oscars, including music, and spawn countless clones.

The Roman/Ancient epic has long been dormant but I've waited a looong time for a resurrection of the musical sound of the genre. How I would LOVE it if Gladiator's score was of a type that brought back memories of North, Rosza, Tiomkin and Newman. And I'm in agreement with Ron Pulliam. I think audiences would embrace it without reservation.

First, the only thing "cheesy" in movie music is what we get 85 percent of the time nowadays. If I want to imagine myself in Rome watching "Gladiator," why should I be reminded of "Backdraft"?? That's as cheesy as it gets.

As for Goldsmith...have you seen/heard "First Knight"? It's as fine a score as was ever written for a movie based on the Arthurian legend. I could imagine a quite sensational Goldsmith score for "Gladiator." My first choice for LOTR is David Shire.

What's old-fashioned about "Spartacus"? It's one of the most modernistic scores ever written!

As far as titles go, does "Gladiator" sound somehow more avant-garde than "Spartacus" or "Ben-Hur"?

No. They all reference historical (i.e., OLD) periods of earth's human history.

There are two problems with scoring for the AUDIENCE. The first is that the audience is not consistent. The second is that the makeup of the audience will change over time.

Now if the filmmakers goal is to reel in as many people as possible over the space of a few months, then by all means, he should go for the AUDIENCE method. Why bother with anything more if the film is only designed to turn a quick buck and be forgotten in five years?

BUT if cinema is really an art form, and the expression being created is an honest one, then the filmmaker must chose a composer who scores for the FILM.

Legend is the perfect example of this. Goldsmith scored for the FILM. Tangerine Dream scored for the AUDIENCE. Decades later, Goldsmith's score remains a phenomenal accomplishment. Tangerine Dream's has faded to retrogressive mediocrity.

I understand folks like Daniel2's deep appreciation for composers who can score for the AUDIENCE. It takes a lot of skill, it really does. But it's not art. It's marketing. Product-design. "Creative Engineering," if you will. Give it a few years, and it's obsolete.

Look at composers like Leonard Rosenman and Maurice Jarre. They don't give a flying fig what the audience "likes" in terms of music. Rosenman does whatever is necessary for the picture, so we get musical masterpieces like "Fantastic Journey." Face it ... if 'CMS' ruled all, the term "avant garde" would be worse than useless. The best you could hope to look forward to would be the first score to "catch up" with the flavor-of-the-year.

Williams, as contemporarily sensible as he may be (he's always keenly aware of the emotional needs of the audience), always scores to the needs of the FILM first. The fact that he remains so popular is a testament to the fact that the AUDIENCE is capable of rising to the occasion.

Remember: film music is designed to support the film, not trick the audience into thinking they're watching a different picture. The film is designed for the audience, sure. But redirect the focus of the music from the movie to the audience, and the film and music begin to work against each other. Maybe not at first, but over time, the cracks will show. If you need a quick example: once upon a time, Giorgio Moroder was about as contemporary as it got!

So if Ridley Scott wants to rake in a younger audience for this Gladiator picture, then it looks like he's succeeding. But in twenty years, all anyone will hear when they watch the film is noise. He's effectively confined himself to a generation.

I'm 19 years old, ladies and gentlemen (Oops! I was gonna save that one for Detroit!) I already know too much about film and music to respect most of it. 99% of the films targeted at "my" generation I find repugnant. My sensibilities are offended by their one-trick commercialism. Call me cynical if you will, but it's patronizing. (Of course, never let it be said that I couldn't cut loose and live in the moment once and a while ... that's not the point. )

So you'll understand that it is with great relish that I look forward to every new Goldsmith score, every new Williams score, and every new Elfman score ... because I'll be able to appreciate them for a lifetime. Apologies to Mssrs. Zimmer and Horner, but in my mind, that's the only kind of score that's worth the effort.

I didn't mean to use "old fashioned" in it's negative way. But there's an aspect to all those scores that makes them sound right for the period it is set in. This also applies to Spartacus, although the techniques are of course avantgardistic: It still has that "old fashioned" aspect as well, I think.

With "cheesy" I was referring to cheesy songs as in Titanic, for example.

I have the First Knight score and find it very beautiful, but I haven't seen the film. I'll try to catch it on TV this weekend, to hear the score in context with the visuals. I don't know how the movie "feels", but from Goldsmith's score, I think it's a different type of movie than those historical epics. Of course, it's historical, and an epic as well, but it still seems to have a different approach than Ben Hur, Spartacus etc.

I think Goldsmith could do a fantastic score for LOTR. Goldenthal could do that, as well. But that would make the movie "feel" differently from what I expect. I'm looking forward to a certain amount of this "old fashionedness", and that's for a great deal up to the score.

NP:Eiger Sanction T 6 Top of the World *****/***

Joan, your topic title has me thinking about a film I just ordered from Amazon (a whole $5.00) called The Time Of Your Life. It's the film version of a Pulitzer Prize-winning play written by William Saroyan (The Human Comedy). The movie wasn't any great shakes but you know how I often buy a soundtrack only to listen to the same cue or two over and over? It's the same way with this film: I'm interested in playing the opening credits over and over. The music, composed by Carmen Dragon, includes an Edda d'Orso-style wordless vocal and the opening credits consist of 'pages' of head-shots of the actors, captioned with the name of their character and a one-line character description.

What fascinates me is that much of the cast includes beloved character actors from the past, and they're all gone; names supporting Cagney like Crawford (Broderick), Bendix and Bond. The music does me in seeing these guys; it's almost elegiac. And yet what mood would the music have put me in if it were the 1940s and I was watching in the theatre? I mean these guys would all be very much around!

Talk about timeless vs. timeliness. As this thread illustrates, perspective i.e. age i.e. frame-of-reference seems to have everything to do with it. Anyway, that's enough for now. The same music sans "Edda", BTW, also underscores a very moving conversation scene later in the film. I'll be fast-forwarding there, too. Overall, this flick can be an engaging slice of life/Americana.

(Howard, I'll try to rent that play/film.)

"My sensibilities are offended by their one-trick commercialism. Call me cynical if you will, but it's patronizing."

Brilliant. Indeed, illustrates "dumbing-down" in a multitude of ways. Let me counter-patronize and ask how long will it be before the next golden age-sounding score comes out and we hear all the hosannas: How nice--a welcome return to symphonic scoring!

All right, you just posted that response. Now go to the SHUFFLE thread on the 3rd page of this 'board and scroll to the bottom of its 2nd page, nyuk-nyuk-nyuk!