You simply asked a question and expressed a personal opinion and preference. I can't imagine why that would anger anyone. You have absolutely no reason to apologize for anything.

PS

"The film composer must make SOME effort to make his music more appealing away from the images the music was intended to augment."

DANIEL2 is right on. That's what make really good film music memorable. And "memorable" means everything. The recent celebration(s) of Max Steiner was (were) too short, IMHO.

I also begrudge the fact that me & Thor are the only people here who value soundtracks as independent entities. The rest of you are a bunch of pathetic movie junkies.

It's preposterous to suggest that others are incapable of appreciating soundtrack score albums as a separate entity. I've never seen half the movies for which I own albums, and probably never intend to. Just TRY and make me watch 100 RIFLES, but that's one of my favorite albums.

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Originally posted by RoboKennyRogers:
If Richard Strauss wanted to re-sequence Eine Alpensinfonie, I'd support him.

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Yeah, right, let's put the thunderstorm on track #2, the summit at #3, and then flip the other cues around a bit.

Jim: I don't think he's mad at you for any particular reason. At least, I wouldn't know a reason for him to be mad at me...

Ask yourself this: WHY are you buying soundtracks? Is it really to relive the movie in your head (or, if you want to be nitpicky, the "mood" of the movie)? Don't you think that the reason you buy an audio CD is because the MUSIC is the thing, and that the movie-memory aspect is secondary? Before you dismiss the question, THINK about it. I think you would give the independent music aspect of film scores more credit if you did.

Mark - I couldn't agree more. SHAKESPEARE IN LOVE?! Hah!

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Originally posted by Thor:
For the 100th time:

Ask yourself this: WHY are you buying soundtracks? Is it really to relive the movie in your head (or, if you want to be nitpicky, the "mood" of the movie)? Don't you think that the reason you buy an audio CD is because the MUSIC is the thing, and that the movie-memory aspect is secondary?

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>>But when the marriage between the image and the music is that powerful, it is not possible to program your mind and simply divorce one from the other.<<

Are you sure about that? I can agree with you that it is very DIFFICULT to NOT think about, say, the STAR WARS films when I listen to the scores - simply because I've seen and been attached to the film so many times. But it's not impossible. Music is one language, film is another. Trough concentration and by using intellect, fantasy, memory (not necessarily of the film) and emotions, it is possible to draw out the "musical essence" of a score, and that is what we're listening to after all - music.

>>Like any other cherished piece of artwork, however, the joining of these elements is something truly worth celebrating.<<

Well yes, I agree. I also find it interesting to analyze the scores in context with the film, and find certain scenes incredibly enhanced by the musical score. But the side of me that finds that interesting IS THE FILM BUFF ONLY. The music buff has nothing to do with that at all. The latter enjoys music as music, not music married to visuals.

>>No one is begrudging the other the right to forsake the film in film music, but it is unfair to the composer to critique the music divorced from the highly-esoteric medium it was specifically designed for.<<

I agree with you. Quote from my reply to Howard above:

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But when the marriage between the image and the music is that powerful, it is not possible to program your mind and simply divorce one from the other. It is a reflexive action as you suggest. Like any other cherished piece of artwork, however, the joining of these elements is something truly worth celebrating.

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MEMO TO HOWARD: I don't know if you already know about this, but the Germans have a term for the conglomeration of entertainment mediums that you referred to. The word is: GESAMTKUENSTWERK. (Pronounced geh-zahmt-koonst-vayrk.)
http://home.sol.no/~oeyste/scifi.htm Click here for Thor's essay about Gesamtkuenstwerk & science-fiction.

I kind of think of you as the one who sees film music as a "tool" and the composer as a "craftsman" (re: your "captor" vs. "creator" thread), while I'm more the film music as an "artistic, independent PRODUCT" and the composer as an "independent artist"-type.

That is not to say that you don't consider film music as art. I think you do, but while you love the the perfect blend of chocolate and caramel (the artistic, chance-like hit of a scene and music), I love BOTH the chocolate and caramel SEPARATELY, although I recognize it's greatness as a combined flavour! (okay, so it's a bad analogy, but you get my point).

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Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
Our beloved RoboKenny seems to be not as German as he states, because the term is "Gesamtkunstwerk", not "Gesamtkuenstwerk".

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MEMO TO MARIAN: I was under the impression that if you don't use an umlaut on an umlauted vowel, then you're supposed to compensate for the missing umlaut by putting an "e" after the un-umlauted vowel. Or maybe you Oesterreichers don't give a crap about umlaut compensation.

That's not brain surgery, but we often forget that it is so much different from other forms of music. Even in the ballet, the music is showcased. A film composer is a team player in the production process.

The scientist/technician in any film composer must first make the film better with his contribution.

It is for this purpose that his role exists, and doing what the film or film music theory requires him to do must therefore be his first and most immediate concern. DANIEL2 and I agree, I can't believe it.

The artist in a film composer--the part of the film composer that wishes deep down that he was a concert hall composer who didn't have to sweat film composing out--wants to write breathtaking, bold music capable of being noteworthy on its own merit apart from the film.

Problem is, often times, to do both of those things requires compromising the purity of each.

In my opinion, the best film composer is never going to sacrifice the needs of the film for his own reputation or soundtrack sales.

Actually, the best film composer doesn't need to sacrifice anything because he's found a way to negotiate both goals without failing to fulfill his duties as a picture's musical craftsman.

Despite this, I still find that my favorite scores when presented on album sound monotonous (melodically, I mean, I suppose). Sometimes orchestrationally too. The music needs to be accessible to an audience in a film. A lot of music should be developed, a lot of it repeated.

There's a big DUH, huh. It's easy to forget film music's first function.

I feel like if, someone wants to listen to symphonies and great flowing music, Tchaikovsky's in the classical section.

I love film music.

It's the most challenging music to write well. I want it to be monotonous. It's more difficult to make a satisfactory album out of the same stuff over and over again than to write a bunch of themes and throw them to a music editor.

This is why I prefer CNIGHT CROSSING to E.T. for instance.

I have to address the fact that I feel that I live a movie over in my mind or live my own movie through my head when I listen to film music. I think I love film music so much because I love movies so much.

A great album consists, first, of a great score that does its job in the film.

Much like I can't vote for scum like Clinton, I can't listen to film music on album that I don't respect. I have to respect the score to like--wel, really love--the music on disc.

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Originally posted by Luscious Lazlo:
I was under the impression that if you don't use an umlaut on an umlauted vowel, then you're supposed to compensate for the missing umlaut by putting an "e" after the un-umlauted vowel. Or maybe you Oesterreichers don't give a crap about umlaut compensation.

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Perfectly right, the point is that "Gesamtkunstwerk" doesn't have an umlaut to begin with. Otherwise, Robo would have been right. In this case, he could have written "Gesamtkünstwerk" as well (does this display correctly on American systems?)

"The criticism is on the basis of how well the music stands on its own as a CD listening experience from end to end. True, this criticism does not take into account how well or how not well the music functioned in the film it was specifically designed for, nor does it necessarily acknowledge the limitations imposed upon the composer as it relates to the medium of film itself. The criticism is, therefore, an ad hoc exercise aimed most specifically at and for the benefit of the members of the soundtrcak listening audience who listen to the music devoid of the film-viewing experience."