I congratulate Hans and his team for a fine, beautiful, and exciting score (specifically Tracks 4, 5, 10).

quote:

---

Black Rain was original only by virtue of my own stupidity.

---

As for me, I certainly didn't write anything great last year ... The Peacemaker. I liked one theme in it.

Ironically, despite all the scores I've written, there are very few I'm proud of.

How many sunflowers scenes did Van Gogh paint before he was happy? You know what I mean? Sometimes it's nice to go over old ground just because you learn something. In film scoring, there's revolution and there's evolution.

It was just a thought...not a chance for Zimmerites and Zimmer bashers to start another battle (played to track three of course...). And yes, I see track 13 as being a scene where the bashers approach over a hill, the Zimmerites standing behind their synthesizers...fingers on keys...

And, NO, this isn't an all synth/guitar score. LOTS of orchestra...LOTS...

There are people who are able to apreciate this Zimmer aberration.
And they are dead serious about it!

NP: Once upon a Forest (Horner) ****/5

----------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cole:
yes there are people whol like composers that are talented and write good music =P

---

Indeed. I know plenty of those.
But most of them don't even know what Hamzimmer means.

Cheers!

again, a 4-composer effort. oy veh...

anyway,
parts of this actually sound inspired by Morricone (what better inspiration can you have???), for example, 9 minutes into track 3, though I suppose that was done by Gerrard.

Joe sez The Battle, also track 3, is all Mars from The Planets. Truthfully, I just don't hear it. Rather, I hear mediocre action music. I have never liked Zimmer's style of action, and this does nothing to change that opinion.

Track 13, 'Barbarian Hordes' is more in line with Mars.

I believe Zimmer shines in the slower passages though, as in track 4, 'Earth', track 7 'Patricide,' and the grand track 9, 'The Might of Rome.'
Do we really need 3 composers (Zimmer, Gerrard, & Badelt) for one track?

Overall, I like this score, on CD, though I kept wanting to hear something more Rozsa-esque (a tall order, I suppose, since the master is gone from us).
Indeed, what will Andre think of me now that I have endorsed another Zimmer+ score? As I ponder that, I just can't wait for the movie to open in a few days, so I can put the images to the music. I'm there dude!

wasn't that an underwhelming review?

NP -- Gladiator. like, duh..

quote:

---

Originally posted by JJH:
Indeed, what will Andre think of me now that I have endorsed another Zimmer+ score

---

Ahnnn... are you sure you endorsed it? Except for "I liked it" I can't find any other reason for this on your analisys. On the contrary... But maybe I'm just dumb.
Anyway, it's nice to know my opinions about things are important!

And don't be so embarrassed. I like some craps too, like "Escape from New York", which is one of my favorite scores altough you will never see me making fool of myself saying things like "John Carpenter is a genius of film music!!!"
Well, but he's better than Zimmer and his pets. And can direct movies also, very well by the way...

NP: SPARTACUS ********************************************** by Alex North

[This message has been edited by SPOR2 (edited 02 May 2000).]

Anyway, if you don't like something, that's fine. However don't trash those who do! Especially since you probably don't like it when the same happens to you.

Personally I have not heard the score, or seen the film. However I am pretty sure I will love both. However it seems like I'll be the only who does.

Which is fine by me, I don't expect others to like what I do. Though I also don't expect to have people trash me, because my thoughts are different than others about particular scores or anything for that matter.

Maybe it's just me!

NP - Gladiator *****/*****

quote:

---

...since when has movie music been about form and structure? that's why you write a symphony or string quartet.

---

Yes.

I would note, however, that Goldsmith has admitted on many an occasion, that HE would be lost without HIS bank of keyboards. The advent of electronic sound made a big impact on the way Goldsmith composed music. One of the main differences between his approach and Zimmer's approach is that Goldsmith was heavily schooled in classically symphonic music long before synthesizers entered the picture. Coming from there, synths became just another color to add to the orchestral pallette.

Someone like Zimmer began much later. He admits to making it up as he went along. From the beginning, synths was just another toy to play with. In some respects, it's remarkable that he's achieved so much coming from the direction he did. It's a fascinating insight into the show biz mindset. Fifty years ago, hollywood would have denounced Zimmer as a "hack." Which is why many people still do.

We have to face it: contemporary sensibilities place much less value on musicality than they do efficiency. And with the bar of public consciousness so low, it's relatively easy for a person like Zimmer, whose entertainment value is high but whose musical integrity is low, to coast by to popular acclaim ... despite attempts by more professional musicians like Goldsmith and Williams to raise the bar.

It's less than desireable state-of-affairs for those of us with the misfortune to know something about the art and craft of good MUSIC. Face it, all you folks who are lavishing "Gladiator" with praise ... it may be entertaining as all hell, and that's just fine, but in terms of structure and depth it rates a big, fat zero. There ain't no meat on them bones! Some of us have had so much exposure to music that the superficial is no longer enough to hold our interest for very long! Approach Zimmer like a musicologist and prepare to cringe.

Like someone said: if Zimmer is a genius, what does that make Beethoven?

Williams can deconstruct every note of his Star Wars trilogy and tell you exactly what it means musically and how it relates to every other note.

Goldsmith can give you an organic musical experience where each texture and each layer can be stripped away to reveal a complex and intricate foundation beneath.

Zimmer ... Zimmer can confirm that loud & fast = intense & exciting. Maybe that's all the picture needs. But, oh, how much richer the film could be. Hollywood produces everything today according to the lowest common denominator. When that happens, film and film scoring stops becoming art and becomes business. Two words ... "Media Ventures"

Anyway, without wanting to sound patronizing, you’ve all stated your opinions very well. But, when push comes to shove, if you want to reiterate your Zimmer-scepticism to maximum effect, just point ‘whoever’ in the direction of Michael Ware’s excellent FSM article.

Wedge: I basically agree with everything you said, but consider this thought: Zimmer is precisely what the current culture of filmmaking wants and requires -- and they want it in part because, as I asserted at another thread, he helped CREATE it -- and Zimmer is the smartest and most talented of the bunch who apply the style. I LIKE Zimmer's work, more often than not. I must respectfully disagree with buddy Andre when he calls Zimmer an "aberration" -- rather, he's quite the opposite -- exactly what the industry wanted and needed, without even knowing how to describe it or ask for it. Zimmer is a genius of A SORT ... the originator of a sound that we'd never heard in ANY kind of movie before. He was as revolutionary in his day as were Quincy Jones, Isaac Hayes and, for that matter, Maurice Jarre and John Barry in their day. (I am NOT kidding about the latter two. To add Goldsmith's name would just be overstating the obvious. And as brilliant as Williams was, his original, principal gift to us was to return to the big, emotional style of the scores of 30s through the 50s.)

I sense a great deal of reluctance about change in soundtrack fandom as I understand it ... I can see no other reason why mediocrities like (fill in the blank) are lionized, while real pioneers like Carter Burwell, Elliot Goldenthal and Danny Elfman (sorry Andre!) sometimes fall by the proverbial wayside. I'm not going to mention ridiculously overrated scores from the past few years, but I believe that they're overrated by the fans because the fans feel comfortable with them. There's nothing wrong, mind you, with snuggling up to a particular score because it makes you feel good, but I'd like it if people DIDN'T pretend it was the be-all and end-all.

Right now I'm listening to Goldsmith's THE MUMMY. I'm not going to pretend I haven't heard pretty much all of it before in different guises, but I like it because it makes me happy. I adore Goldsmith's writing, in the same way I adore the most repetitive of novelists whose work, nonetheless, I manage to enjoy. In the same breath, I'm not going to pretend that this music, as many minutes of it he wrote, is anything more than a stretch of the old arms and fingers. I'm glad he did it, I'm glad we have it, but I won't pretend it's something he had to STRETCH to do. It's basically KING SOLOMON'S MINES all over again, in fact. (whoa, AMAZING trumpet bit over "Rebirth" just kicked in)

Rereading this, I kind of feel like I lost track of my basic point, but will file this anyway. At best, it will stir things up. That's always fun, fun fun.

NP: still THE MUMMY

I mean, I can say Hanz Zimmer sucks ten tousand times, but it's just MY OPINION - ok... maybe one or two zimmerities will die of hart attack because of it.
I consider him an aberration when film music is the subject. His only genious is to make money reproducing loud and repetitive beer commercial tunes into screen. His score adds nothing to the movies he scores. Far from it. They detract and make the movie worst ("The Peacemaker) or at least ridiculous ("Broken Arrow"). It's only waves and waves of orchestral/synths/soloist/chorus noyse, everybody playing the same note wall to wall. He has no talent for composition neither for orchestration.

Zero. Nope. Nada!

I can't understand why there's so much praise around this guy and his drones. And, most of all, will never understand why a talented director as Ridley Scott would call Zimmer to score a gladiator flick - guitars and synths on Rome? Please... Altough we must remember that he considered at one point replacing Goldsmith's score for "Alien" in favor of Isao Tomita eletronic beats... Irrrgh!

Well, I just can't do anything about it - except of course runing away from theaters showing movies with this fella's music.
I'm sure I won't be missing that much, since all this Bruckenheimer/Bay ridiculous flicks don't appeal me...

Besides that, lets just get along, ok?

Cheers and be happy all of you!

And even, H Rocco, though you ended your ideas with the comment,
“It will stir things up. That’s always fun,” I don’t think your supple
writing will anger too many people. You too skillfully (maybe even
kindly..I know; you’re a “mean *******”) utilize transitions
like, “Respectfully disagree with you buddy...sorry Andre,” and others.
I call this an agreement to disagree with GRACE AND CLASS! It’s
a model that would stop some hurt feelings that have recently surfaced.

With reference to my appreciation of Michael’s GLADIATOR/Rozsa article…..I’m only giving credit where credit is due.

Michael has expressed his opinion extremely well, and SPOR2 and Wedge have done likewise.

As Joan has said, your own follow-up response, H Rocco, complements what has been said very nicely, and you go further. You appear to broadly agree with the sentiments of MLWare, Wedge, SPOR2, etc….but, crucially, you also recognize the apparent state of affairs in the world of film music, without necessarily wholeheartedly welcoming it. By that I mean, though many have expressed their DISAPPOINTMENT at Zimmer’s approach to scoring movies, it does appear to be Zimmer, and other exponents of his approach, who are generally sought after MOST by the successful filmmakers of today.

It just happens to be the case that I PERSONALLY welcome the current state of affairs at the cinema, especially when current cinema allows someone of John Williams’ ability to continue to be recognized as the ‘number one’ (I think he is anyway) film composer. Williams has continued to progress as a film composer and has broadened his repertoire during the 90’s, and yet has also maintained his ‘traditional’ film-scoring roots, to a large degree.

This is the start of the Summer Movie season and Gladiator has the chance to be huge. Everyone is anticipating that its sucess will spawn imitators.

Some people wanted a "Classic" Roman epic score and others are probably going "Why"

BUT only the release of the film will tell whether or not the score works in the film.