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      I'm sure this has been done before (Page 1)

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    Topic:   I'm sure this has been done before

     dantoris
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    You are your most-favorite composers? You can list as many as you like. "Honorable mentions" excepted, too.

    IN NO ORDER, EXCEPT FOR THE FIRST:
    Jerry Goldsmith
    Alan Silvestri
    John Debney
    Elia Cmiral
    Elmer Bernstein
    John Williams
    Hans Zimmer
    John Carpenter (So sue me!)

    HONORABLE MENTIONS:
    Danny Elfman
    James Horner (So sue me again!!)
    George S. Clinton
    Shirley Walker
    David Newman

    So go ahead and pitch in!

    [This message has been edited by dantoris (edited 03 April 2000).]

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    posted 04-03-2000 09:23 PM PT (US)     

     Kevin
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    Williams
    Goldsmith
    Herrmann
    Horner
    Tiomkin
    Elfman


    Kevin

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    posted 04-03-2000 09:24 PM PT (US)     

     Onelegger
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    (in no peticular order)

    John Williams
    David Arnold
    Thomas Newman
    Danny Elfman

    honorable mention to:

    Marc Shaiman
    Alan Silvestri
    Hans Zimmer
    Basil Poledouris
    James Horner

    NP - From Russia With Love

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    posted 04-03-2000 11:37 PM PT (US)     

     Kris
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    John Debney
    John Ottman
    John Williams
    Jerry Goldsmith
    Hans Zimmer

    David Arnold
    Danny Elfman
    Basil Poledouris
    Alan Silvestri
    Bruce Broughton
    James Newton Howard
    Trevor Jones
    Don Davis
    Joel McNeely

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    posted 04-04-2000 12:51 AM PT (US)     

     Thor
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    This is the kind of topic that requires LIMITATIONS to sustain interest, but I list my top 3 nevertheless:

    1. JOHN WILLIAMS
    2. Danny Elfman
    3. Jerry Goldsmith

    No, not a lot of surprises there...

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    posted 04-04-2000 03:31 AM PT (US)     

     sabbey
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    Well I like most if not all composers, but off the top of my head, they would be.

    Jerry Goldsmith
    John Williams
    James Horner
    John Barry
    Danny Elfman
    Patrick Doyle
    Elmer Bernstein
    Thomas Newman
    David Newman
    Alfred Newman
    Don Davis
    James Newton Howard
    George Fenton
    Basil Poledouris
    Alan Silvestri
    Michael Giacchino
    Max Steiner
    Joel McNeely
    Erich Wolfgang Korngold
    Yoko Kanno
    Alex North
    Miklos Rozsa
    Franz Waxman
    John Debney
    John Ottman
    Shirley Walker
    Bernard Herrmann
    David Arnold
    Hans Zimmer
    Graeme Revell
    Marco Beltrami

    And about an million others.

    Regards,
    Sean Robert Abbey

    [This message has been edited by sabbey (edited 04 April 2000).]

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    posted 04-04-2000 04:05 AM PT (US)     

     Cole
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    1.Williams
    2. ties between:
    Herrmann
    Goldsmith
    Barry
    3. ties between:
    Craig Armstrong
    Goldenthal
    4. ties between:
    Zimmer
    Elfman
    Doyle
    5. ties between:
    Randy and Thomas Newman


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    posted 04-04-2000 12:23 PM PT (US)     

     MWRuger
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    I never rule out a score by composer, nor do I automatically buy a score by any composer. I try to judge each score on its individual merits.

    However,
    These fellows (In no particular order) seldom disappoint:

    John Williams
    Danny Elfman
    Jerry Goldsmith
    Basil Poldouris
    Carter Burwell
    Christopher Young
    John Ottman

    Also Rans: Everybody else!

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    posted 04-04-2000 12:31 PM PT (US)     

     John Maher
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    I enjoy more than a few by these composers -

    Jerry Goldsmith
    Bernard Herrmann
    Pino Donaggio
    Alfred Newman
    Elmer Bernstein
    Henry Mancini

    Honorable mention to both John Barry and John Williams who write really good themes (main titles).

    [This message has been edited by John Maher (edited 04 April 2000).]

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    posted 04-04-2000 12:46 PM PT (US)     

     James
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    In alphabetical order:

    Richard Band
    John Barry
    Don Davis
    John Debney
    Danny Elfman
    Jerry Goldsmith
    Bernard Herrmann
    Miklos Rosza
    John Williams
    Gabriel Yared

    And since you didn't specify *film* composers:

    Bela Bartok
    Antonin Dvorak
    Edvard Grieg
    Karl Jenkins
    Modest Mussorgsky
    Henry Purcell
    Camille Saint-Saens
    Igor Stravinsky

    James

    [This message has been edited by James (edited 04 April 2000).]

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    posted 04-04-2000 02:03 PM PT (US)     

     Lancelot
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    oh wonderful....LISTS....

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    posted 04-04-2000 02:24 PM PT (US)     

     Andre Lux
    unregistered  


  • My 10 favorite are (in order):

    1) Jerry Goldsmith
    2) Ennio Morricone
    3) John Williams
    4) Howard Shore
    5) Basil Poledouris
    6) Patrick Doyle
    7) Alex North (RIP)
    8) Bernard Herrman (RIP)
    9) Elliot Goldenthal
    10)Bruce Broughton

  • Honorable mentions:

    1) Michael Kamen
    2) John Barry
    3) David Arnold
    4) Joel McNeely
    5) James Newton Howard
    6) George Fenton
    7) Chris Young
    8) Zibgnew Preisner
    9) James Horner
    10)John Carpenter

  • Dishonourable Mentions:

    1) Hans Zimmer (and all his clones)
    2) Giorgio Mororder
    3) Brad Fiedel
    4) Danny Elfman
    5) Leonard Rosenman
    6) Alan Menken
    7) Trevor Jones (except "Dark Crystal")
    8) Cliff Eidelman
    9) Tangerine Dream
    10)Ry Cooder


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  • posted 04-04-2000 02:32 PM PT (US)     

     Andrew Drannon
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    1. JERRY GOLDSMITH!

    the rest are in no particular order:
    John Williams
    Bernard Herrmann
    Elliot Goldenthal
    Franz Waxman
    Sergei Prokofiev
    James Horner (only his early works)
    Alex North
    Leonard Rosenman
    Basil Poledouris

    As far as non-film goes:
    tie for first place:
    Richard Wagner
    Gustav Mahler

    Franz Liszt
    Johann Sebastian Bach
    Arnold Schoenberg
    Sergei Prokofiev
    Cesar Franck
    Igor Stravinsky
    Ralph Vaughan Williams

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    posted 04-04-2000 02:51 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    Jerry Goldsmith
    Akira Ifukube
    John Williams
    Christopher Young
    Bernard Herrmann
    Masaru Sato
    Carter Burwell
    Danny Elfman
    John Barry
    James Horner

    ... but I posted a list that was probably a bit different before, several months back. (After the first six on my list, it's kind of give-and-take. Thomas Newman, Randy Newman, Elliot Goldenthal, Ennio Morricone, Michael Kamen, Ry Cooder, Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Wojciech Kilar -- if it's good, it catches my ear. But I am only genuinely serious about roughly half-a-dozen.)

    NP: "Siegfried's Funeral March" (Wagner)

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    posted 04-04-2000 03:12 PM PT (US)     

     Timmer
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    Oh dear, This is tough,I might have changed my mind by tomorrow?!

    film composer's in personal order of favorite...

    1. john Barry
    2. jerry Goldsmith
    3. John Williams
    4. Basil Poledouris
    5. Ennio Morricone
    6. Christopher Young
    7. Bernard Herrmann

    ...and honorable mention's to load's of other's, YES!...even Giorgio Moroder!

    ...and classical, In order of favorite's...

    1. Vaughan williams
    2. Maurice Ravel
    3. Claude Debussy
    4. Dimitri Shostakovich
    5. Serge Prokofiev
    6. Modest Mussorsky
    7. Sergei Rachmaninov

    .....and again honorable mention to too many not noted here!

    NP : still not decided

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    posted 04-04-2000 04:59 PM PT (US)     

     Kevin Su
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    My Favorite Composers: (in order)
    1. Jerry Goldsmith
    2. Danny Elfman
    3. Christopher Young
    4. Ennio Morricone
    5. George Fenton
    6. John Barry
    7. Zbigniew Preisner
    8. Patrick Doyle
    9. Gabriel Yared
    10. James Newton Howard

    Honorable Mentions:
    1. Alan Silvestri
    2. John Williams
    3. Basil Poledouris
    4. Alan Menken
    5. David Arnold
    6. Thomas Newman
    7. John Ottman
    8. Miklos Rozsa
    9. Marc Shaiman
    10. Bernard Herrmann

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    posted 04-04-2000 06:22 PM PT (US)     

     Scott
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    John Williams
    Jerry Goldsmith
    Aaron Collins
    John Scott
    Trevor Jones
    James Horner
    James Newton Howard
    Bruce Broughton


    Honor:
    Joel McNeely
    Young
    Kamen


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    posted 04-04-2000 06:40 PM PT (US)     

     mlw
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    jerry goldsmith
    miklos rozsa
    bernard herrmann
    alex north
    john morris
    john corigliano
    john scott
    akira ifukube
    david raksin
    alfred newman
    franz waxman
    erich wolfgang korngold
    sergei prokofiev
    nino rota
    david shire
    elmer bernstein
    jerry fielding
    georges delerue
    henry mancini
    bronislau kaper
    john williams
    basil poledouris
    philippe sarde
    ennio morricone
    toru takemitsu
    craig safan
    lee holdridge
    elliot goldenthal
    danny elfman
    david newman
    ry cooder
    shirley walker
    lalo schifrin
    gerald fried
    william walton
    brian easdale
    georges auric
    paul chihara
    jay chattaway
    miles goodman
    hummie mann
    curtis mayfield
    bruno nicolai
    francesco demasi
    tan dun
    leonard rosenman
    bruce broughton
    randy newman
    masaru sato
    michael j. lewis
    joanna bruzdowiscz
    stanley clarke
    james bernard
    carl davis
    phillip glass
    michael kamen
    peter bernstein
    laurence rosenthal
    elia cmiral
    richard einhorn
    howard shore
    terence blanchard
    christopher young
    don davis
    pino donaggio
    thomas newman

    these ones I can take or leave as they've yet to do anything I can remember even though their work is normally intelligent and functional:
    james newton howard
    carter burwell
    john ottman
    marc shaiman
    rachel portman

    and these ones are useless:
    hans zimmer
    hans zimmer inc.
    john debney
    maurice jarre
    james horner
    randy edelman
    david arnold
    gabriel yared
    alan silvestri
    graeme revell
    joel mcneely
    john frizzell
    wojciech kilar

    [This message has been edited by mlw (edited 05 April 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by mlw (edited 05 April 2000).]

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    posted 04-04-2000 07:32 PM PT (US)     

     Lancelot
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    You may not like them, but they are FAR from useless.

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    posted 04-04-2000 07:35 PM PT (US)     

     mlw
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    right, they'd make a good little league team or something, hairspray consultants etc

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    posted 04-04-2000 07:44 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    "shrug" (where is the 'picture me shrugging' icon I keep asking for?)

    Mr. Ware has impeccable taste for the most part; that I do not agree with all of it is simply a matter of ... hmm, taste. (At least he likes Mr. Ifukube, Mr. Sato and Mrs. Pasolini (i.e. Rachel Portman). How about Mr. Hayasaka? Not yelling atcha, I forgot a lot of names that you did remember. But come on, Alan Silvestri has really shown his chops over the years ... I didn't like him much for a long time myself, but now I've grown somewhat fond of him (the BACK TO THE FUTURE trilogy never did much for me, but thumbs up to VOLCANO, SOAPDISH and the PREDATORs. I already sense we will never agree about Zimmer, though he's not even in my top 10.)

    I guess I must study my gung fu if I am to meet you in person, Michael ... or might I be mistakenly addressing Kent? "Life in (fill in the blank), where a musician without a girlfriend is basically homeless ... "

    NP: "The Artist Who Did Not Want To Paint" (Goldsmith rerecording for Intrada in 1989, on the RIO CONCHOS rerecording ... I kept listening to that minute-and-a-half excerpt from the OST at DECONSTRUCTING GOLDSMITH and realized I was dying to hear the WHOLE thing once again ... you know, I still think that given the timing of WHEN Goldsmith happened to rerecord this informed the particular sound of the friendship theme he wrote shortly thereafter ("The Mountain" is the only CD cue that preserves it) in STAR TREK V. A movie I love, dammit.)

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    posted 04-04-2000 07:54 PM PT (US)     

     Lancelot
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    That wasn't exactly what I was implying, but knock yourself out with your infantile observations.

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    posted 04-04-2000 07:55 PM PT (US)     

     mlw
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    Silvestri always sounds the same. The comedies work out swell. Predator 1 almost effected a little more than the general feel, but backed away from doing more than signal the action licks. Judge Dredd was ok. What is this guy about as a composer? It's always a conventional way out. Newton Howard, Isham, others work to hit those supposedly untapped synapses where the music supports but doesn't lapse into cliche, even if the scores don't hold up.

    Considering the stupendous amount of really fine work done by actually formidible composers, this isn't worth much as an argument. Type a dis on a very few commercially succesful acts and someone gets upset but then there is nothing on some of the best music done even in the recent past. Christopher Young-- what a kickass musician who at least has the ability to get even better. Or Craig Safan. Of course the better composers probably have way too much personality for the marketplace to put up with. Imagine someone like John Scott degrading his style to accommodate the current subdued ambient cool-guy approach.

    [This message has been edited by mlw (edited 05 April 2000).]

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    posted 04-04-2000 08:17 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    You've got a point there, Michael, I can't imagine John Scott doing any such a thing.

    We agree on Christopher Young, certainly, but on precisely what do you base your high opinion of Craig Safan? I don't dislike his music, but nor am I a fan; but perhaps I haven't heard the best (I remember LAST STARFIGHTER, but never heard his WOLFEN, for example. And why does he work so little these days? His residuals from CHEERS, I imagine?)

    NP: still VANGELIS "Themes" (now "Chung Kuo")

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    posted 04-04-2000 08:20 PM PT (US)     

     mlw
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    Check Safan's Son of the Morning Star. Vibrates with power and emotional ardor disciplined into an austere Vaughan Williams-like modality, for that depth of feeling kept at an empyrean remove (Can't think of a simpler term, sorry). Contrasts the Western European based thematics for Custer with straight tribal incantations for Crazy Horse. Locates the valor and tragic schisms in the central characters and resolves them through a tight formal design.

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    posted 04-04-2000 08:27 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    Good Lord, you don't think "empyrean remove" is a simple term?

    Domo, daimyo.

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    posted 04-04-2000 08:32 PM PT (US)     

     DANIEL2
    unregistered  

    My top thirty favourite film composers, in order of merit.

    1 Max Steiner
    2 Alfred Newman
    3 Horner
    4 The Zimmer School, past and present
    5 Tiomkin
    6 J Williams
    7 T Newman
    8 Herrmann
    9 Elfman
    10 Barry
    11 Alwyn
    12 Morricone
    13 Shore
    14 Jarre
    15 Newton Howard
    16 Waxman
    17 Isham
    18 Silvestri
    19 E Bernstein
    20 Skinner
    21 Poledouris
    22 Rozsa
    23 Webb
    24 Spoliansky
    25 Mancini
    26 Frankel
    27 Goldsmith
    28 Malcolm Arnold
    29 Clifton Parker
    30 C Young

    Of all of the current film composers, John Williams has my greatest respect, for maintaining his ‘number one’ industry status during thirty years of rapidly improving standards. Each passing year has seen an increase in the number of quality scores from a growing pool of versatile, talented, and increasingly sophisticated composers. 2000 looks set to continue that trend with another batch of potentially classic scores in the pipeline, not least Williams’ score to THE PATRIOT.

    The ‘Grand Union Flag’, hoist Jan 1st 1776 at the behest of George Washington.

    Of course, there are many other excellent film composers who do not fall within my PERSONAL top 30, from Rosenman to Raksin to Revell to Ottman to Doyle to North to Goldenthal to Sarde to Yared and so on. Additionally, it may be the case that a composer has written very few scores or I haven’t seen enough of a particular composers’ movies to form a personal opinion. For instance, Harry Robinson (THE VAMPIRE LOVERS, THE BEST PAIR OF LEGS IN THE BUSINESS) is a particular favourite of mine, but I haven’t seen enough of his movies for him to qualify for inclusion in the above list.

    However, one thing is for certain, there are well over one hundred film composers throughout the history of movies who have enriched cinema in their own special way for the benefit of us all.


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    posted 04-05-2000 10:25 AM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    Putting this one back up, just because.

    'ey, Daniel, which scores of Benjamin Frankel particularly appeal to you? The only one I know is MAN IN THE WHITE SUIT, which has a particularly infectious little early-days-synth effect in it. (At least I figure it's a synth. Sounds a bit like bubbles popping?)

    NP: "Close Encounters: The Essential John Williams" (Silva rerecording) (not terrific, but at least it has a suite from BLACK SUNDAY on it)

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    posted 04-05-2000 09:42 PM PT (US)     

     DANIEL2
    unregistered  

    H Rocco.

    Apart from his 'hilariously alarming' work on the wonderful THE MAN IN THE WHITE SUIT, Benjamin Frankel produced a number of other varied and interesting scores for a pretty impressive line-up of mainly British movies. His scores were on the whole classically orientated, though he started out as a jazz violinist. Frankel also composed many concert pieces, including eight symphonies.

    Here’s some of my favourite Frankel-scored movies.

    THE SEVENTH VEIL (1945) had Frankel scoring a movie with classical music at its centre. His excellent score blends perfectly with the Beethoven and Chopin. James Mason, Ann Todd and Herbert Lom have rarely been better.

    BATTLE OF THE BULGE (1965) was one of Frankel’s last scores, and vigorously mirrored the events on screen with a particularly powerful main theme. The early part of the film focusing on a very impressive Robert Shaw and his preparations to mobilize his nazi panzer divisions, was far superior to the movies’ slightly disappointing second half. However, there was an intelligent script and a great cast, with Robert Ryan playing yet another high ranking American officer, an intelligent Henry Fonda, and an hilarious Telly Savalas the pick, along with Shaw’s typically dominating performance (on a par with his brilliant characterizations in A MAN FOR ALL SEASONS and THE TAKING OF PELHAM 123). In addition there was the novelty factor of seeing George Montgomery in a later role.

    DAYBREAK (1948) was a British noir with an excellent performance from the peerless Eric Portman. Frankel’s brooding score reinforced the movie’s cynical atmosphere. Ann Todd was the ‘femme fatale’, Maxwell Reed her ‘physical’ lover, and Portman her part-time hangman husband. The late Bill Owen (Compo from LAST OF THE SUMMER WINE) was also notable as Portman’s barbershop partner, and the eternally reliable Edward Rigby was brilliant as an ‘old sea dog’. Maurice Denham made a brief early appearance as a docklands’ cop.

    LONDON BELONGS TO ME (1948) was a glorious evocation of 40’s London with a cast of brilliant British character actors, Alastair Sim was wonderful as a fake medium, Joyce Carey was simply superb as his innocent ‘victim’, Dickie Attenborough was great in a sort of ‘BRIGHTON ROCK’ role as a kid accused of murder, Gladys Henson was his adoring and adorable mother, Wylie Watson was the epitome of the cockney playing a fellow resident in the boarding-house, and so on. Maurice Denham had another small early role here, this time impressing as a slimy crook. Frankel’s score was suitably ‘London’ and ‘black’ in its arch comedic approach.

    SO LONG AT THE FAIR (1950) was a beautifully realized Paris-set mystery thriller. Set in Victorian times, the young and beautiful Jean Simmons’ brother, David Tomlinson, mysteriously disappears during a stay at a Parisian hotel….Dirk Bogarde and Andre Morrell come to the rescue. A fascinating film, it keeps you guessing to the end. Frankel’s score evokes the period and place to perfection. His haunting carriage music became very popular away from the film.

    THE CLOUDED YELLOW (1951) saw a sterling performance from Trevor Howard as a former secret service agent up to his neck in trouble when he finally finds work cataloguing a butterfly collection, of all things (hence the film’s title). The Northern English Lake District is beautifully captured, though in black and white, and once again Jean Simmons, Maxwell Reed, and Andre Morell are on hand to provide the innocence, animal attraction, and urbanity respectively. However, it is the always superb Barry Jones who steals the movie. Frankel’s score is tense and hyperactive, as one would expect for an Hitchcockian mystery/thriller.

    The Clouded Yellow butterfly.

    1952 saw two real Frankel highlights. THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING EARNEST provided us with wit, great actors, and a delightful Wildean essence, though it was a little stagey. THE FINAL TEST was an absolute delight, Terence Rattigan, Jack Warner, Robert Morley and Anthony Asquith combined to create a wonderful tale of comedy and drama against a backdrop of international cricket.

    1955 was a banner year for Frankel. Excellent, diverse and successful projects were heaped upon him. STORM OVER THE NILE was an excellent take on THE FOUR FEATHERS, and gave Geoffrey Keen a chance to shine as the sympathetic doctor. Christopher Lee popped up in an early role, and Sam Kydd made his obligatory bit-part appearance as the blinded Laurence Harvey’s servant/companion. James Robertson Justice appropriately blustered in the old C Aubrey Smith part, and Anthony Steel was typically likeable as Harry Faversham. THE FOUR FEATHERS was remade again in 1977 with Beau Bridges and Harry Andrews and was okay. However, this 1955 movie will always be my favourite version of the classic British Empire tale of 1890’s Sudan complete with whirling dervishes, not least because of Frankel’s suitably all-encompassing score….he covers much musical ground here, the lofty empire building pride of the British, the ethnic rumbustiousness of the Sudanese and the romance and sentiment of the story as a whole.

    The British Empire in Africa (1890).

    Then there was FOOTSTEPS IN THE FOG. Foggy Victorian London beautifully realized, with fine performances all round, especially Stewart Granger, and Jean Simmons…again!

    Still in 1955, and Frankel did SIMON AND LAURA, a truly sophisticated piece with tour de force performances from Peter Finch, Kay Kendall, Ian Carmichael (perhaps his best performance), and Maurice Denham (this time as a ‘wise’ butler). This movie originated as a West End play, and it does show. But, the performances, wit and Frankel’s elegant and sophisticated score make for a supreme entertainment.

    As if that wasn’t enough Frankel’s next 1955 project was the fantastic THE MAN WHO LOVED REDHEADS. Terence Rattigan at his best, sumptuous colour photography, magnificent and opulent London settings, and truly great performances. Roland Culver gives the performance of his lifetime as diplomat John Justin’s lifelong garrulous and permanently intoxicated friend. Harry Andrews is simply brilliant as Justin’s trusty batman (the soul of tact), and Denholm Elliot and Gladys Cooper rounded off a superb cast. Look out for this film, great score from Frankel TOO.

    THE END OF THE AFFAIR was a very classy character drama set in wartime London. Edward Dmytryk directed with authority, and putting the adequate Van Johnson aside, the movie contained three stunning performances. Deborah Kerr was amazing as the wife drawn into an extra-marital affair, just look at all the great films this lady has appeared in both sides of the Atlantic. Peter Cushing is superb as her dull, long suffering, though forgiving husband. John Mills adds a beautifully comedic performance to his gallery of characterizations as a particularly thorough and efficient private eye. Frankel’s music is by turns romantic and heart rending.

    However, Frankel’s best project of 1955 was the incredible A KID FOR TWO FARTHINGS. London’s Petticoat Lane has never seemed such a magical place, thanks to the characterizations, Frankel’s score, that runs the gamut of emotions, and Carol Reeds insightful direction. Amongst a great cast of British character actors, all sporting various cockney, British, Italian, and Jewish accents, David Kossoff shines the brightest. Here he plays a whimsical London Jew (he steam presses trousers for a living) who spins fanciful tales to a young boy who ends up believing his pet goat is a unicorn. It sounds schmaltzy, and it is, but boy, what a WONDERFUL and moving film.

    BROTHERS IN LAW from 1957 saw Ian Carmichael striving to exist as a young London barrister. This one’s very funny, Dickie Attenborough is particularly good, as is the irreplaceable Terry-Thomas.
    A quirky, spiky comedy score from Frankel here.

    1959’s LIBEL provided Frankel with the cinematic canvas to create an all embracing Hollywoodesque score, much like Skinner’s fabulous PORTRAIT IN BLACK and MADAME X. The convoluted and melodramatic story featuring Bogarde and DeHavilland allowed Frankel to create a dramatic and lush score.

    Those are some of the films I remember Frankel scoring, there are many others, but either I can’t remember his music or I simply haven’t seen the movie anyway….yet.

    I hope you get a chance to enjoy some of these Frankel-scored movies H Rocco.

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    posted 04-06-2000 12:54 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    Wow, thanks. Too much for me to digest this second (I'm running late as it is), but I'll return to it this evening.

    One thought: I loved the original FOUR FEATHERS, didn't yet see STORM OVER THE NILE, but I always thought that was the more evocative movie title. (Both made by Zoltan Korda, yes?)

    Always more stuff to catch up with ...

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    posted 04-06-2000 01:01 PM PT (US)     

     dantoris
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    DANIEL2 - I see Mr. Steiner is your number 1 favorite composer. What do you of The Most Dangerous Game? I think it's one of his best, and I can't wait to own Marco Polo's re-recording of it sometime next year.

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    posted 04-06-2000 01:20 PM PT (US)     

     DANIEL2
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    Dantoris.

    I couldn’t agree more, THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME was an excellent early talkie, featuring the ineffable Leslie Banks as the villain, and Max Steiner at his best…..what more could one ask for? In fact, much like Steiner’s work on KING KONG, I see this as one of THE pioneering film scores, helping to define the purpose of the modern film score that continues to this day. Steiner’s THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME does share some similarities with KING KONG….naturally, but overall it is a distinctly different composition with breathtaking action music and authentic ‘tribal music’ providing the atmosphere.

    I should add, to me, his score to THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME is just one of a legion of fantastic scores that Steiner wrote during his career. I sometimes find it hard to believe that there was only one Max Steiner, considering the huge number of successful movies he scored….and he ALWAYS seemed to give the absolute maximum of effort.

    This one composer alone is reason enough for ME to love movies and film music.

    Leslie Banks as the madman Zaroff.


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    posted 04-06-2000 03:50 PM PT (US)     

     dantoris
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    What other Steiner scores would you recommend? Game really is one of my favorites, but I've never really heard any other Steiner music, just bits and pieces here and there.

    And have you seen the DVD of Game? It's absolutely beautiful. Nice, crisp, crystal-clear picture, with a wonderful audio commentary by a film historian whose name escapes me at the moment. Don't know if it's available over there yet, but you should definately pick it up if it is (and if you have a DVD player).

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    posted 04-06-2000 05:06 PM PT (US)     

     Audacity
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    top five....

    james newton howard
    alan silvestri
    john williams
    mark isham
    mark mancina


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    posted 04-07-2000 01:43 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    I'd like to kick in a mention of Steiner's SON OF KONG, which many people may just write off as a copy of the first (the two pictures having been made so close together), but which in fact has some fascinating interpolations of the original's music, way, way subtler than you'd expect. Composers of such characteristic bombast as Steiner and, admit it, Williams, are often not appreciated for how very delicate their touch can be.

    If nobody ever heard this quote (forget who wrote it, sorry -- critic James Agee, or someone like that? and I paraphrase): "Why didn't they simply advertise KING KONG as a concert for Max Steiner's music, with accompanying pictures on the screen?"

    THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME benefited in part from its luxurious jungle sets, way more elaborate than those for the usual B-movie which it manifestly is (no less GREAT for that reason -- actually I hate the term B-movie, except when referring to B-as-in-Budget). The sets were originally crafted for a massive LOST WORLD-like project entitled CREATION, for which the sets were built, and a lot of test footage (and actual footage, I believe) was shot (great stuff of a maddened mother triceratops chasing down a Great White Hunter). To maximize the money that was already spent, THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME was shot on these sets (with future KONGers Fay Wray, Robert Armstrong, Noble Johnson and Steve Clemente in the cast) even as KING KONG was being prepared (to be shot on the same sets, of course). (I've written some or even all of this before, but maybe not on this board ... more than a thousand posts here alone already, I'm going to lose track. Perhaps I shouldn't do this anymore, with all the time and energy I spend here, I could've written another book already.)

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    posted 04-07-2000 02:47 PM PT (US)     

     DANIEL2
    unregistered  

    dantoris

    Thanks for the DVD recommendation.

    As for the best of Steiner’s other scores, there are SO many, where do I start? To begin with, I will say that ONE of the reasons why I love Steiner’s music is its similarity to Gustav Mahler’s style (my favourite composer). In fact Steiner studied under Mahler in Vienna (his birthplace), before coming to England in the early 1900’s. After about ten years in London, Steiner was ‘discovered’ by Ziegfeld, no less, and the rest is history.

    Steiner in 1913.

    Steiner does have a reputation for creating very sentimental, string-heavy and omnipresent film scores, and because of this, and Steiner’s frequent incorporation of other composers’ song melodies, anthems and themes into his scores, Steiner is perhaps not everyone’s FAVOURITE composer, and some people, novices and scholars alike, regard Steiner only with well-deserved respect, mainly for his acknowledged technical expertise and pioneering of the modern dramatic score, and for the sheer volume of outstanding movies to which he has been attached. Whilst I understand and respect this standpoint, to me, beneath the sweet veneer that coats many of Steiner’s film scores, exists music of enormous power and diversity.

    In fact, Steiner’s scores almost always incorporate those elements of composition that I admire so much in Mahler’s work…..the conflicts within the orchestra, one instrument playing against another, the apparently banal melody that suddenly transforms into the most sublime musical statement, the warmth, the nostalgia, the bittersweet….wonderful stuff.

    What makes Steiner’s achievements all the more remarkable, is that whilst creating MUSIC of incredible sophistication and depth, he still almost always SCORES his movies to perfection. And, there is so much more to Steiner’s music than the sweet and bittersweet….below I describe what I believe are some of the most outstanding film scores in the history of cinema….only Alfred Newman comes anywhere near Steiner’s consistent level of brilliance….in my opinion. This is not to say that all other film composers are inferior, my post above indicates my high regard for dozens of other film composers, it’s just that Steiner, to me, is THE BEST, with Alfred not TOO far behind.

    THE INFORMER (1935) saw Steiner’s first Oscar win, along with director John Ford and star Victor McLaglen. A marvellous tale, with a great McLaglen performance and typically superb Ford direction, is all about the IRA, human nature and naïvete. Steiner’s score sticks in the mind like the memory of a perfect summers day. Though the subject matter of the movie is powerful, Steiner weaves a delicate and yet complex musical tapestry. After ‘inventing’ the dramatic score for movies such as THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME and KING KONG, here Steiner develops the art of scoring action, emotion and agenda to a new level of achievement.

    Victor McLaglen as Gypo Nolan in THE INFORMER

    1936 saw the full flowering of Steiner’s powers. The British Empire saga THE CHARGE OF THE LIGHT BRIGADE was primarily set in colonial India, with the Crimean War, in which the famous charge took place, only featuring at the end of the movie. However, this was the movie that really made Errol Flynn into a legendary superstar after CAPTAIN BLOOD (1935) had put him on the map. The greatest director of them all, Michael Curtiz, did a magnificent job on THE CHARGE OF THE LIGHT BRIGADE, the photography was awesome, and a massive cast of Hollywood-based British stalwart character actors was assembled, including a memorable performance from Donald Crisp as Flynn’s commanding officer in India. The spirit of the British Empire is beautifully realized by Curtiz, a director who somehow always successfully nailed his diverse projects with the utmost authenticity despite only speaking broken English. Likewise, Steiner’s score is a tribute to the British colonial forces. His score incorporates familiar British military anthems, as well as a wealth of original material. The incredible skill and humanity with which Curtiz directs is mirrored in Steiner’s detailed scoring, each memorable element of the movie having its own musical accompaniment of equal importance. His music is by turns profound, patriotic, and deeply moving….one scene in which Flynn returns from a skirmish in enemy territory to find his whole British garrison, including wives and children, horribly massacred, is one of the most moving scenes I have witnessed in movies….and Steiner magnifies the emotion to the nth degree.

    The Sun Never Sets on the British Empire


    THE GARDEN OF ALLAH, also 1936, is a unique experience. One of the first colour movies, the richness and depth of light, colour and shadings has never been surpassed. The locations help, never have I seen the atmosphere and essence of being in the desert so perfectly captured on film. The movie looks like an oil painting, such is the beauty of the colour and photography, the desert is brought to life, the people, the sky, the sun and the moon, the whole experience is incredibly romantic. Dietrich, Boyer and Rathbone are magnetic, even the whites of their eyes glow under the silvery desert moon, such is the detail in the photographing. Steiner’s score is equally romantic, unique and unforgettable. A combination of sultry ethnic rhythms, dreamlike and subtle voices and Mahlerian emotional conflict makes for one of Steiner’s top five scores, in my opinion. Steiner’s score goes beyond mood setting or dramatic comment, it is a fully integrated part of the movie, his music BELONGS in this romantic desert world.

    Name any famous Hollywood melodrama of the 30’s and 40’s, and the chances are Max Steiner wrote the score. JEZEBEL (1938) was no exception. An exquisite example of pure Hollywood entertainment, JEZEBEL saw a great cast headed by a typically supremely confident Bette Davis….an Oscar winner here, along with the delightful character actress Fay Bainter. Henry Fonda is perfect as the strong and quiet object of Davis’ affections, and a rakish George Brent completes the triangle. Donald Crisp is on hand again. Steiner’s score is a whirlwind of melodramatic contrasts, as colourful and highly charged as Wyler’s wonderful movie.

    1939 had two massively entertaining Steiner-scored westerns. THE OKLAHOMA KID had energetic performances from gangsters-in-stetsons James Cagney and Humphrey Bogart. DODGE CITY saw goodie Errol Flynn battling baddie Bruce Cabot (Magua from the 1936 version of LAST OF THE MOHICANS). Steiner’s music was bubbly and flavourful, and added greatly to the charm of these big budget western extravaganzas.

    Bette Davis and George Brent teamed up again for 1939’s THE OLD MAID…..the ultimate ‘woman’s picture’. Steiner’s immaculate scoring is one of many successful aspects to this picture that boasts a typically strong supporting cast led yet again by the reliable Scotsman Donald Crisp.

    Steiner recording THE OLD MAID

    I don’t have to say anything about GONE WITH THE WIND, surely second only to CASABLANCA as the most famous popular film of all time, and Steiner scored both. Musically, CASABLANCA is more famous for its song ‘As Time Goes By’ than for Steiner’s powerful and perfect scoring. However, GONE WITH THE WIND is Steiner’s own, musically speaking.

    1940 saw Steiner compose one of my favourite scores of all time, to THE LETTER. I cannot begin to describe how successfully Steiner scores this picture set in British colonial Malaysia. Everything about this movie is top drawer, if you haven’t seen it….see it soon. Bette Davis and Herbert Marshall are superb in their contrasting ways.

    Herbert Marshall

    1941’s THEY DIED WITH THEIR BOOTS ON is one of my favourite films. The story of Custer is told with such enthusiasm, and Steiner’s score is a gem. Of all of the movies’ memorable scenes, the most unforgettable was seeing Hattie McDaniel skulking in the bushes pretending to be a hooting owl.

    The singer and actress Hattie McDaniel


    1942 was an incredible year for Steiner. Not only CASABLANCA, but NOW, VOYAGER with a memorable Steiner theme that somehow epitomises this composers’ sound. Amongst a cluster of other excellent movies that year was CAPTAINS OF THE CLOUDS. Here, James Cagney played a Canadian airman. This movie also boasted excellent colour and a particularly rousing wartime propaganda message. Real life Canadian Air Marshal Bishop delivers a wonderfully patriotic speech to newly recruited members of the Royal Canadian Airforce from all corners of the British Empire.

    Canadian Air Marshal Bishop – loyal servant of his majesty the king and the British Empire

    1944’s SINCE YOU WENT AWAY is pure Steiner sentimental melody, and he deservedly picked up his third Oscar. However, it was at this point in his career when Steiner’s music took on even greater depth, subtlety and variety. MILDRED PIERCE (1945) had a spectacular performance from Joan Crawford, moody direction from Curtiz and a darkly romantic score from Steiner. Here it seemed, Curtiz was moving into more contemporary territory, his movie was peopled by cynical and ugly characters, Jack Carson and Zachary Scott, and Steiner’s scoring took a giant leap into the modern world.

    A STOLEN LIFE (1946) provided further evidence of Steiner’s continuing maturity. Bette Davis playing twins and upsetting Glen Ford provides an immense amount of fun. The movie is moody, romantic and intriguing….and Steiner’s deep and rich score is all of those things too.

    Also in 1946, Steiner scored THE BIG SLEEP, and what a brilliant job he made of it. Everything about this movie was slick, the script, the performances, the twisting story, and Steiner’s moody and noirish score, full of smooth understatement punctuated with exciting bursts. His music suits the movie as well as Bogart’s snappy and cynical star performance.

    1947’s DEEP VALLEY is an unusual film. There are fine performances from Dane Clark and Fay Bainter, and especially Henry Hull, here proving what a fine character actor he is when he underplays. The tense and brooding atmosphere of this film is heightened further by Steiner’s complex and compelling score, full of gorgeous and unusual orchestral combinations.

    1948 saw Steiner continue his ceaseless run of successful projects. JOHNNY BELINDA was another unusual and distinctive movie from the director of DEEP VALLEY, Jean Negulesco. Here again Steiner proves he’s not just a composer of the sweet and sentimental. His score hits virtually every emotion.

    THE ADVENTURES OF DON JUAN had a mid-career Errol Flynn still proving he’s ‘got it’. Here he battles that excellent British villain Robert Douglas and Steiner’s score is in the best swashbuckling Korngold tradition.

    SILVER RIVER is another excellent mature-Flynn movie, this time a western. The ultra-reliable Thomas Mitchell is particularly good in this one and Steiner’s score is remarkable.

    They don’t come much better than KEY LARGO. Here Steiner creates a stunningly mature score, complete with appropriate jazz elements.

    1949 saw another of Steiner’s greatest scores. His work on WHITE HEAT is a million miles away from his famous sweet and sentimental sound. Here he provides an exceptionally taut score in keeping with the searing nature of the movie, a movie that benefits from one of Cagney’s greatest performances. Steiner’s score is a model of precision scoring, every ominous note serves its purpose.

    Also in 1949, THE FOUNTAINHEAD allowed Steiner to pull out all of the stops. An absurdly overwrought movie, it is nevertheless fascinating and immensely entertaining. Gary Cooper, Patricia Neal, and Raymond Massey are superb in this tale of a gifted architect putting his artistic principles above personal gain. Steiner’s score is positively Wagnerian in its size and scope, the music is magnificent and memorable.

    And then FLAMINGO ROAD. Sydney Greenstreet is memorable as the manipulative and hideous sheriff Titus Semple. The rest of the cast compete valiantly with Greenstreet’s dominance, and Steiner’s score is an infectious hurricane of overheated musical passages.

    Sydney Greenstreet

    BEYOND THE FOREST was much the same. Here, nice doctor Joseph Cotton is virtually ruined by scheming bitch Bette Davis. This one’s a ripe old melodrama, as entertaining as it is ludicrous. Yet again Steiner hums along, no matter how overwrought the scene, the music is never outdone.

    In 1950 evil Brit Robert Douglas had Burt Lancaster to contend with in THE FLAME AND THE ARROW, a massively entertaining action movie set in medieval Italy. Steiner’s score is a marvel, and ranks alongside much of Korngold’s swashbuckling work.

    OPERATION PACIFIC (1951) was a surefooted John Wayne war movie. Steiner’s music is very impressive throughout the movie.

    LIGHTNING STRIKES TWICE, also from 1951, has a young Richard Todd looking for Hollywood stardom. Well, he was okay, as was the film. Steiner’s scoring of this melodrama was effortlessly excellent.

    SPRINGFIELD RIFLE (1952) was a rip-roaring western with Gary Cooper as an undercover Union man. Steiner’s western scoring has rarely been better, and combined with his growing maturity, produces here a noteworthy musical accompaniment.


    ROOM FOR ONE MORE (1952) saw Steiner in light comedic mood. A delightful romantic/family comedy, with Cary Grant the head of a growing family of orphans, gives Steiner the chance to write some really nice music.

    Steiner hit top form with THE CAINE MUTINY in 1954. Bogart’s bearing-crunching Captain Queeg is one of cinema’s most memorable characterizations.

    KING RICHARD AND THE CRUSADERS had a smashing performance from Rex Harrison as the evil Saladin, Steiner’s score is epic.

    1956 had two great contributions from Steiner. George Sanders fantastic performance in DEATH OF A SCOUNDREL is scored with incredible energy and innovation. Steiner’s score switches from Mahlerian complexity to jazz, and back again almost seamlessly….definitely one of his finest compositions. THE SEARCHERS is regarded by many as the best western ever made, Steiner’s score complements the agenda of the movie perfectly.

    BAND OF ANGELS (1957) was another southern-set civil war saga, with an ageing but excellent Clark Gable. Torin Thatcher’s memorable sea-captain is in the Lee J Cobb bracket of over-the-top performances, and Steiner’s music mixed with some great choral work from the liberated slaves. Steiner’s score also contains some incredibly ferocious and detailed action music, during several bayou chase scenes. One of the most effective parts of this movie was when Gable recounted his slave dealing days in west Africa. He recounted the story as if he was reliving the ghastly events, the herding of the slaves onto his ship, the attempts to beat the British blockade, and the filthy conditions the human cargo endured on the journey. Through all of this Steiner’s music is there, muted, but still a frantic tangle of tribal dissonance, as if emanating from Gable’s tortured mind….very impressive.

    THE HANGING TREE (1959) was an excellent late-Gary Cooper western. Cooper’s brilliant performance as a dubious doctor is as sophisticated as Steiner’s score.

    SPENCER’S MOUNTAIN (1963) is a movie not to everyone’s taste owing to its gooey sentiment. However, once the goo barrier had been breached, there is a lot to enjoy in this movie. Henry Fonda was at his homespun best, it was the wonderful Donald Crisp’s swansong performance, and Steiner came up with a bright and witty score, surprisingly very jazzy.

    Donald Crisp

    dantoris, those are the Steiner scores that have stuck in my memory as being simply brilliant. Of course, he’s done many other fine scores that I haven’t mentioned here; in fact, I can’t think of a film he has scored badly, off hand. Of course, there are still lots of Steiner-scored movies I haven’t even seen.

    If you get the chance, I hope you derive as much pleasure from watching these Steiner-scored movies as I have done.


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    posted 04-07-2000 04:15 PM PT (US)     

     dantoris
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    DANIEL2 - WOW!! Thanks for the recommendations. I'll give everything a more thorough read later tonight when I have time. But thanks.

    HRocco - Marco Polo is coupling Son of Koing with The Most Dangerous Game. Now I just have to wait until sometime NEXT YEAR for the CD to be released. But it'll be worth the wait, I'm sure of that.

    [This message has been edited by dantoris (edited 07 April 2000).]

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    posted 04-07-2000 04:31 PM PT (US)     

     DANIEL2
    unregistered  

    dantoris

    I mentioned above that THE LETTER (1940) is one of my all time favourite movies AND film scores.
    You can find a nice clip of Steiner’s main theme here, but of course, the music is best appreciated in the movie.

    http://www.reelclassics.com/Audio_Video/Music/steiner_theletter_maintitle.mp3

    THE LETTER is from a W Somerset Maugham story, and this 1940 version captures the essence of Maugham like no other movie. Beyond that, it is one of the most expertly made Hollywood melodramas….a tribute to director William Wyler’s immense skill. Bette Davis, playing a schemer and murderess, is quite magnetic, the Oscar-nominated James Stephenson (in one of his last films before his untimely death) is superb as a British police constable, and Gale Sondergaard is typically enigmatic. However, it is Herbert Marshall who excels, as Davis’ trusting rubber plantation owning husband. Interestingly, Marshall also had a part in the 1929 version of THE LETTER.

    Bette Davis and Herbert Marshall in THE LETTER.

    The movie is set in Malaysia, then part of the British Empire, and known as Malaya. The sense of time and place is skilfully evoked by the filmmakers, and Steiner’s scoring is intoxicating.

    The British Empire in South East Asia (1929).

    Earlier at this thread I spoke of my keen anticipation of Williams’ score to THE PATRIOT. However, it is already apparent that the movie will be littered with historical inaccuracies. The American War of Independence was a complex affair, and it wasn’t simply the ‘evil’ British against the ‘just’ British American colonists. Yes, the British did carry out SOME atrocities, every war has its sadists. However, THE PATRIOT will completely overplay this side of the story, the British, to a man, being portrayed as evil murderers. The complex reasons why the war of independence actually took place will be largely ignored by the filmmakers in favour of a simple, and basically inaccurate, depiction of the American goodies repulsing their despotic English masters.

    Jason Isaacs as the evil Brit Colonel Tavington

    The fact that most of the British American colonies were peopled by the British and descendants of original British colonists at the time of the struggle, will of course be avoided, as will the fact that over half of the ‘English’ redcoats were actually Welsh, Scottish and Irish. And despite the impression that is given in movies like THE PATRIOT, the fact remains, Australia, Canada and New Zealand turned out okay, even though they remained part of the British Empire, along with a host of other nations. However, I do concede the USA would probably have not become the greatest nation on Earth (by far), had it remained within the British Empire, AND Britain owes America a great debt for coming to its aid during two world wars. It’s just a shame that more Americans (especially modern politically correct filmmakers) seem unwilling to give the British PEOPLE credit for their massive input into what was to become the USA.

    The British Empire, after the loss of its 13 American colonies and Florida.

    THE PATRIOT will be another politically correct distortion of history, just like LAST OF THE MOHICANS (1992) and BRAVEHEART. Amongst many sops to political correctness, the historical figure on which Gibson’s character is loosely based will not be to seen to have any slaves. The fact that the British did actually engage in SOME gentlemanly conduct will be ignored also. The rebellious British American colonists actively targeted the British generals (a fair tactic of course), whereas the English considered it ‘not the done thing’ to eliminate the opposing general. In fact, early in the conflict, a British scouting party happened upon a relatively unguarded George Washington. However, because Washington was an officer, the British allowed him to return to his own forces. How different history may have been?

    Is it William Wallace or Benjamin Martin?

    It is interesting to note that the popular revolutionary song Yankee Doodle was actually written by an Englishman serving with British General Braddock’s forces during the French and India War in the 1750’s. The song was actually written to mock the ‘dishevelled’ British American colonists militia who joined with the ‘spit and polished’ British army redcoats at Niagara to thwart the French. Of course, it was only at the time of the war of independence that the rebellious colonists made Yankee Doodle their own. An unlikely origin for such an ‘American’ song, much like the fact that the very Irish song, DANNY BOY, was written by an Englishman who never even set foot in Ireland.

    The Grand Union Flag.

    Yes, the Grand Union Flag, the FIRST ‘American’ flag, hoist at the behest of George Washington on January 1st 1776. This flag alone proves that even after months of conflict, the British American Colonists had no desire to become independent from mother England and the British Empire. It wasn’t until mid 1777, that the Grand Union flag was replaced with the first version of the Star Spangled Banner. Even to this day though, the 13 stripes continue to represent the original 13 BRITISH American colonies.

    Basically, the makers of the THE PATRIOT will be exploiting the public’s lack of interest and knowledge in British America. It is a great shame that history cannot be represented more accurately, but it is, I suppose, understandable. At least THE PATRIOT looks like being a particularly entertaining movie (like BRAVEHEART was)……..and that’s all that really matters.


    [This message has been edited by DANIEL2 (edited 10 April 2000).]

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    posted 04-10-2000 10:26 AM PT (US)     

     pietari
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    Top Five at this moment : (in no particular order)
    James Newton-Howard
    Patrick Doyle
    Jerry Goldsmith
    Trevor Jones
    Hans Zimmer

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    posted 04-10-2000 10:32 AM PT (US)     

     Chase&August
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    Who cares if a movie contains historical inaccuricies(sp?)? As long as it's entertaining and highly-enjoyable (like The Last of the Mohicans), we don't care.

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    posted 04-10-2000 11:08 AM PT (US)     
     

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