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      film score war stories

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    Topic:   film score war stories

     HAL 2000
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    I've heard a few of these accounts of composers working on a picture where the experience proved to be sheer hell for them.

    Off the top of my head I can think of Goldsmith's experiences with Ridley Scott while working on Legend. Goldsmith said it was one of the worst of his career, not only because Scott caved into the studio and let his score get dumped but because the process of working with him was so unbearable.

    I've also heard that James Cameron made James Horner jump through numerous hoops when they worked together on Aliens.

    John Barry had some harsh things to say about his experience on Born Free. I can't remember what exactly except he cited creative differences.

    One of my favorites is the one of Jerry Goldsmith recording and mixing Start Trek:The Motion Picture just days before it's national release.

    I'd love to hear what you guys know.

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    posted 03-30-2000 07:01 AM PT (US)     

     Bulldog
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    Apparently, Steven Spielberg had to get used to John Williams' tastes when they first worked together on THE SUGARLAND EXPRESS.

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    posted 03-30-2000 07:30 AM PT (US)     

     Marian Schedenig
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    Speaking of Goldsmith & Scott, don't forget "Alien". Jerry didn't want to work with Scott again after this desaster, but eventually decided he'd do "Legend" because he liked the script. Luck for us, but not for Goldsmith...

    NP: Voodoo Lounge (The Rolling Stones, great)

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    posted 03-30-2000 03:51 PM PT (US)     

     PeterD
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    What you said about THE SUGARLAND EXPRESS sounds interesting, Bulldog. But can you (or anyone) give us some more details? (I'm not doubting it, just want to know more.)

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    posted 03-30-2000 05:22 PM PT (US)     

     Jeron
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    Of course, it's been rumored that Jerry's score for Legend will be appearing on the DVD in it's originally intended form.

    I hope so...
    Jeron

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    posted 03-30-2000 08:32 PM PT (US)     

     Mark Olivarez
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    Actually I thought Speilberg hired Williams because he liked Williams music he composed for THE REIVERS.

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    posted 03-30-2000 08:59 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    One of the most recent bios says that Spielberg all but tossed a coin on THE SUGARLAND EXPRESS: Williams or Goldsmith, Williams or Goldsmith ... I think he already knew Goldsmith personally, partly because Goldsmith scored ACE ELI AND RODGER OF THE SKIES (1973), for which Spielberg supplied the original story. If I remember right, this is the same bio that gets original and quite extensive quotes from Goldsmith personally -- quite interesting ones. (When he lost at the Oscars to E.T., he visited Goldsmith, who also lost that night for POLTERGEIST -- lost to E.T., in fact -- to pour his heart out. Short but very interesting anecdote. I think this is the Joseph McBride bio -- if not, then it's the "other" one. Look up Goldsmith's name in the index, and the book where he's mentioned more often, that's the author Goldsmith spoke to. I don't own it, that's why I'm being vague.)

    For years Goldsmith classified ALIEN as his most miserable working experience -- he was relatively happy on LEGEND until the score got tossed, because he'd gotten Ridley Scott to communicate. Failure to communicate with the director, in Goldsmith's view, is as bad as it can possibly get on any job -- hence these days, he seems to call GLADIATOR his worst experience, because director Rowdy Herrington apparently could not vocalize what he needed. I'm not sure where he's ever commented on another rejected score, THE PUBLIC EYE (he was probably the choice of producer Frank Marshall, who tries to get him on most projects, some of which -- SMOKE AND MIRRORS for example -- don't get made; and finally succeeded getting him for CONGO, ironically one of the very worst movies Marshall's been attached to. I wish Goldsmith had been secured for Marshall's production of THE SIXTH SENSE as well.)

    NP: I'll reach into the stacks and grab something at random. Maybe I'll tell you what it is, and maybe I won't.

    Okay, I'll tell you: I came up with BASIC INSTINCT.

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    posted 03-30-2000 11:48 PM PT (US)     

     HAL 2000
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    Rocco. You're right about Alien. The experience is pretty well covered in the liner notes with the Silva expanded Legend. I also remember reading quite recently that Goldsmith is still bitter with Scott.

    I have somewhere an interesting account of Goldsmith's experiences on Star Trek: The Motion Picture. It wasn't anything creative or personal that killed JG but the production schedule. I'll try to pull a few tidbits and post them later.

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    posted 03-31-2000 07:44 AM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    At the time the LEGEND contretemps went down, Goldsmith gave an amazingly angry interview to, I think, the Los Angeles Times, which Randall Larson reprinted in CINEMASCORE (the hugest issue he ever printed, including a massive section on foreign -- which is to say, non-American -- film composers. Cover was all red and black with Tim Curry as the devil. I gave my only copy to Akira Ifukube because he was one of those profiled in it.)

    "No, I don't forgive him," Goldsmith said of Ridley Scott. "Why should I forgive him?" Once Scott read that, after having implicitly asked for Goldsmith's forgiveness through the reporter, that was probably the end of any chance they would ever get together again. He said at the time that he did hope he could work with Goldsmith again. Heh, that ends that. I am not sure, in the final analysis, that the two were ever very good for each other, anyway.

    Back then in 1985, Scott could easily have pulled a Terry Gilliam and just stuck up for Goldsmith's score -- Gilliam did that for another Universal fantasy project being mangled at the same time, BRAZIL, and Michael Kamen's score was finally retained. Scott just didn't do the right thing. He can be a great director, if a rather superficial one, but this is one case where he didn't do the right thing. No one is perfect, but I'm sorry to see this stain on the careers of both the director and the composer. Although the real villain in this case is Universal chieftain Sidney Sheinberg.

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    posted 03-31-2000 01:22 PM PT (US)     

     DjC
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    I have no problem with directors being a pain in the ass to composers, sometimes composers do not come up with what the director had in mind, therefore it is the directors job to be a "bitch" to make sure that everything is going the right way, but they do need to give composers some space though.

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    posted 03-31-2000 01:36 PM PT (US)     

     HAL 2000
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    I agree DJC except in the case of Scott and Legend Goldsmith gave the director what he apparently wanted (as far as Goldsmith could tell... Ridley Scott is notoriously disconnected from his composers) but due to studio politics allowed them to have the film rescored. Sounds almost as bad as what Kubrick did to Alex North on 2001.

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    posted 03-31-2000 01:45 PM PT (US)     

     PeterD
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    In his book "Ridley Scott: The Making of His Movies," Paul M. Sammon goes into quite a bit of detail on the scoring of LEGEND. He quotes Scott as explaining what happened this way:

    "Actually, I felt awful about having to replace Jerry Goldsmith's music on the American version, because Jerry had given me exactly what I'd asked for. And I still think Jerry's score for LEGEND was bloody good. But somehow, during all the second-guessing that went on while we were re-editing the film, Jerry's music began to be perceived as being too sweet; frankly, [Universal] got a little paranoid and thought Jery's stuff too sentimental. I was persuaded to be insecure about Goldsmith's score as well. . . . So it's all very, very sad. Goldsmith was upset by the situation, and we've never spoken since. After what he went through on ALIEN and then LEGEND, I doubt Jerry would want to work with me again."

    Scott says he was "very insecure" after the commercial failure of BLADE RUNNER, and "that put me into the position of starting to believe what I didn't believe. So another way of explaining what happened on LEGEND was that I was being Hollywood-ized by the reaction to BLADE RUNNER."

    (By the way, if you like Scott's films, Sammon's book has a lot of good behind-the-scenes stuff about all of them, and being a paperback, it's not all that expensive.)

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    posted 03-31-2000 06:25 PM PT (US)     

     Graham Watt
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    Didn't John Barry have a falling out with Barbra Streisand over The Prince Of Tides because he couldn't stand her big nose constantly protruding over his left shoulder? I think that Barry said that she gave him absolutely no room to move at all. Anyway, James Newton Howard (an old flame of Streisand's?) was brought in and provided a nice score that sounded just like John Barry!

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    posted 04-01-2000 08:24 AM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    That's basically the story, although Barry is notoriously touchy -- he's walked off at least half a dozen projects because he didn't feel he was being treated right (e.g. THE RIGHT STUFF, CLASH OF THE TITANS, DANCE OF THE DWARVES ... )

    I believe James Newton Howard was actually living with Streisand at the time.

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    posted 04-01-2000 09:23 AM PT (US)     

     Hard Target
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    Well Michael Kamen had a similar experience with Die Hard With A Vengeance as John McTiernan rejected about a ton of new material that he'd written for the film. Instead, McTiernan went with original themes based on the original film which is unfortunate. And ironically, Kamen also had aweful experiences that same year since his scores for Assassins and the D.O.A.thriller Fair Game were both rejected. Ironically, he was replaced on both projects by Mark Mancina.

    Other horror stories includes Mark Isham and the Waterworld fiasco in which his score was replaced with a new one by James Newton Howard after Kevin Costner took over the directing chores after firing director Kevin Reynolds. Along with Alan Silvestri's miserable time on Mission Impossible after Tom Cruise fired him because his score was not what he wanted for the film. Of course there's George Fenton's rejected score to Interview With A Vampire in which the film's producers thought it was way too slow (Ironically it was reused and orchestrated for Mary Reilly), Thomas Newman's miserable experiences on The Craft and Pret-A-Porter. The infamous 13th Warrior in which Michael Crichton took over the project after the film was deemed unreleaseable firing John McTiernan (who still got credit) and completely throwing out Graeme Revell's score in favor of Jerry Goldsmith's brilliant work. James Horner's problems with Walter Hill on Streets of Fire in which he wrote 3 different scores and still had them thrown out in favor of Ry Cooder in which Hill would work with endlessly up until Supernova. Of course he then rejected Elmer Bernstein's score to Last Man Standing after the New Line music department was completely happy with his score and Hill just simply wanted Cooder on the project and thust was thrown out. Howard Shore's rejection of the Ron Howard thriller Ransom, in favor of a more conventional suspense score by James Horner. and the stories go on and on lol. but let's pay our respect to the scores of rejected scores past:

    2 Days In The Valley (Jerry Goldsmith)
    Marvin's Room (Thomas Newman)
    Waterworld (Mark Isham)
    Playing By Heart (John Barry 50% of it)
    Prince of Tides (John Barry)
    Mission Impossible (Alan Silvestri)
    Assassins (Michael Kamen)
    High Fidelity (Carter Burwell)
    Gladiator (Jerry Goldsmith)
    Die Hard With A Vengeance (Michael Kamen, the new material)
    Alien Nation (Jerry Goldsmith)
    Dead Bang (Gary Chang)
    Rosewood (Wynton Marsalis)
    Ransom (Howard Shore)
    Dangerous Beauty (Rachel Portman)
    Air Force One (Randy Newman)
    Fair Game (Michael Kamen and David Sanborn)
    The Bodyguard (John Barry)
    Breakdown (Basil Poledouris, the first original score)
    The Craft (Thomas Newman)
    K2 (Hans Zimmer)
    The Picture Bride (Cliff Eidelman)
    Last Man Standing (Elmer Bernstein)
    What Dreams May Come (Ennio Morricone)
    I Love Trouble (Elmer Bernstein)
    The Scarlett Letter (Ennio Morricone and Elmer Bernstein, seperate scores)
    Streets of Fire (James Horner)
    The Journey of Natty Gann (Elmer Bernstein)
    A Low Down Dirty Shame (Bill Conti)
    Young Guns (James Horner)
    Legend (Jerry Goldsmith)
    2001 (Alex North)
    The Battle of Brittan (Sir William Walton)
    The Horse Whisperer (John Barry)
    The Sixth Man (Randy Edelman)
    The Exorcist (Lalo Schifrin)
    Halloween H20 (John Ottman)
    Goodbye Lover (John Barry)
    Interview With A Vampire (George Fenton)
    Stepmom (Patrick Doyle)
    The 13th Warrior (Graeme Revell)
    Cruel Intentions (John Ottman)
    Jersey Girl (Christopher Young)


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    posted 04-02-2000 01:07 AM PT (US)     

     Thor
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    Yeah, Rocco, I remember that Goldsmith interview in that massive CINEMASCORE issue. I was really amazed as to how verbal he was, avoiding the obvious diplomacy these guys usually serve us. I also remember another interview with Goldsmith (conducted by a fan after a concert), in which he (tired as he might have been) came up with short, surprisingly terse replies - basically because he was asked those types of questions by the "fan reporter" that he allegedly hates!

    I think the worst "film score war story" happened with revered British composer Howard Blake on FLASH GORDON. Rock group Queen was set to do the score, but couldn't really figure it out, so they hired Blake to do the almost two hours of underscore IN LESS THAN 10 DAYS!! Blake sat up the last four days and nights and wrote the entire score, delivered it to the producers and then slept for 3 CONSECUTIVE DAYS. His sleep was actually so deep that he needed medical assistance to wake up at all. He almost died!

    The top of the iceberg was that Blake's score was eventually tossed out. Talk about gratitude!

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    posted 04-04-2000 09:10 AM PT (US)     
     

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