I respect you sir, your show and contributions to the field of film music are good ones, but it has come to my attention that you talked composer Basil Poledouris out of allowing for an isolated score on the upcoming Conan: Collector's Edition DVD and all I have to ask is WHY????!!!!!!!!

I understand that you revealed he would "not make a dime" from the inclusion of such an extra and that an isolated score would "hurt sales" of the CD. While this may be true, what you should understand is the following:

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1) Very few are going to spend $34.95 on a DVD just for an isolated score.

Anyone who does this is likely to own the CD anyway, but just wan't to hear the score in its entirety.

2) Isolated scores can actually prompt the casual dvd buyer/movie fan into buying the official CD. I know of many who have taken to film music thanks to such a feature and these people can never be bothered to hook up a CD/minidisc to their home theatre amp to rip the isolated track and thus "hurting sales"

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Conan is an old score now, most of us own it, in fact, any fan of Poledouris' or the movie most certainly owns it! So how can the DVD "hurt sales" of the CD? The reason many would enjoy an isolated score is because we LIKE the music and want to hear the score in its entirety.

Hearing scores in their entirety is something we rarely get the chance to do, but isolated scores have given fans a chance and my god, I am amazed Basil Poledouris would rather make a "dime" then sit back and take pride in knowing his fans would be anticipating and enjoying the chance to hear a complete recording of all the music he worked so hard to write!

We like isolated scores because they offer us something the CD does not and as a filmmaker and screenwriter I could not care less if my work ever earned me a penny, as long as I was respected for what I did and that I know people enjoy what I do.

I am sorry if I am coming off as a bit harsh, because like I said, I do admire your work, but I'm just finding this hard to come to grips with.

Regards,

Dan Brecher (UK)

"Deal with it, Fanboy. Poledouris doesn't get compensated for the isolated score. His Conan album still sells well. Fact of life."

I'm also disheartened by Thaxton's claim, not because I really care all that much about Conan's score, but the fact that it portrays our beloved composers as being only in it for the money.

Shaun, our beloved composers need money, just like you or I, or else they'd have to do something else to pay the bills.

Basil not only has bills to pay, he should also be rewarded for having a very unique talent that I can't even begin to understand. I don't work for free, and I'll bet you don't either.

I don't want artists to be monks living in hovels and wearing threadbare garments. I want them to be rewarded for their talent, which gives pleasure to so many of us.

We shouldn't be outraged that Basil won't do this for us for free, we should be outraged that the suits at the DVD company are too stingy to properly compensate an artist for his work. Heck, an iso score would increase the sales of the DVD, they'll make even more money.

Marc

And I hope it's not a trend for Ford to go out discouraging isolated scores on all DVDs!!

And BTW How many of you think Ford will actually respond to this topic?

I think I've made my feelings clear on this topic.

There is a fan view (which I understand) and then there is the business view.

All I did was point out two important points to the man and that an isolated score wasn't in his best interests.

And if anyone wants to Ask Mr. Poledouris his opinion on this matter, be my guest.

I will say that the thought of remixing the film itself into true stereo was something that I supported, it's a shame that the elements couldn't be located to do that.

Regards

Ford A.Thaxton

I can understand the situation from a business point of view, and am actually surprised the composer is not compesnsated. The most knowledgable Marc Flake (above) makes very good comments, and hey, maybe WE should all band together to see they DO get paid...

Ford's points were;

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(1.) He doesn't see a dime off an isolated score on a DVD

and

(2.) The Conan CD still sells rather well and he does see income from that
and Why do something that that will hurt the sales of something you make
money on.

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I am a little confused, when a composer writes a score that is used in a film, doesn't that score become the property of the production company? If so then why would Basil even have a say in whether or not the score is isolated?

Also, I was under the assumption that composers get paid once, when they score the film. Most of them don't make residual profit off the OST sales, do they?

People who want to listen to an inexpensive version of the score can get the regular release. People who have to have all the music should be willing to pay a little more for it.

It would give people who want a complete version an option besides bootlegs.

Since the status of Isolated DVD scores has not been completely settled by the courts, it should be possible to compensate composers for the DVD track. However, if you do that then do you have to pay additional reuse fees. These are all issues that the courts will probably have to decide. In the meantime, no one will be happy.

(Oh by the way, I am not really into complete, gotta have every note. I have a CD-R and professional sound editing software but I haven't felt the need to go to all that work for every note of any score. However, if I felt that the music on the score CD was poorly presented (Phantom Menace)or not available at all, I would probably try my hand at it.)

Good points about how to prevent the isolated score being made into bootlegs, but someone will always find a way and seeing as digital sound mixes can be so damn distracting over listening to the music in a movie I am not sure if I am for that idea.

To be honest I do not personally find the audio quality of isolated scores to be THAT good, certainly not as good as a CD master.

ChrisN,

How on Earth can you compare DVDs with isolated scores, to someone making a bootleg recording of a score? They are two totally different things. It is not illegal for me to have DVDs with isolated score, nor is it illegal for me to record that isolated score for my own use. Obviously a company like Sony is not too worried about people bootlegging isolated scores, or else they wouldn't make them. (I mention Sony only because they seem to be putting out the largest number of DVDs with iso score).

I think putting Isolated scores on DVDs helps reduce bootlegging. How many of you would rather pay twenty dollars for a Bootleg or illegal recording of Predator, or pay twenty five dollars for the DVD movie with isolated score.

You can try to make the argument that not everyone has a DVD player so there are still those that look to purchase bootlegs. But eventually everyone WILL have a DVD player and hence have the ability to hear the iso score. In the long run I think the more and more isolated scores we have, the fewer and fewer illegal bootlegs will be made.

The question might be, just how will the isolated score be presented? If it's the kind that fades in and out and is clipped here and there, there should be no question. That kind of isolated score holds no value, or threat.

Next point.

Ford, did Poledouris come to you and request your advice on this? Poledouris a smart cookie. I think he already knows whether or not he'll be making any money off of it. Further, he has had a firm stand on bootlegs for as long as I've known him.

Finally, is it really up to Poledouris whether or not his score appears isolated on the DVD? That seems odd, but weirder things have happened.

PeterK

How on Earth can you compare DVDs with isolated scores, to someone making a bootleg recording of a score?

I think I already answered this above.

It is not illegal for me to have DVDs with isolated score, nor is it illegal for me to record that isolated score for my own use.

I didn't say it was illegal. But if you make multiple copies of that score you recorded and trade or sell them, that is illegal.

I think putting Isolated scores on DVDs helps reduce bootlegging.

I don't. That's my opinion. Take for example the Ryko release of "The Misfits". Beautiful score, great recording. It hasn't even scanned 1000 units. Why ? Alot of collectors already had copies of the bootleg. (This has nothing to do with DVD's).
The DVD release of "Tomorrow Never Dies" included an ISO score and there were several different bootlegs of it out there because of it.

Chris

Sure, many of us that have been involved in the Internet soundtrack community for any number of years are aware of Ford's attitude. Whether or not it's a "problem" is neither here nor there. All I can say is he's one helluva diabolical human being. On the one hand he wants to conditionally help folks, on the other hand, his scathing sense of "vindication" has not earned him many fans. What to do about it?

You can try what many did for so many years. Do battle with him on rec.music.movies. Heck, this may still be happening, I was just so sick of it, I left the place.

Or, to keep your sanity, just ignore it.

I am in a position here to wipe threads out completely if I am sickened by them. So, don't be surprised if this stuff disappears. These are personal attacks and egocentric monologues, neither of which are related to movie music.

PeterK

I don't think we should scoop down to insulting each other just because we disagree about something.

I personally disagree with Ford on this one, yet, composer's are so underapreciated still that I can understand if they are trying to protect their intersest as much as possible.

Look, we have more soundtrack releases than at any time in history and it seems to get better not worse. Composers generally understand and appreciate the hard core fans out there and are releasing promos and other means of getting the hard to get scores to us.

Let's be thankful for what we already got, hope that it continues to get better and treat each other with dignity and respect. After all, we all share the same passion and essentially the same goals.

I would hope that if you felt that this thread was causing a problem with personal vindictiveness that you would just wipe those posts.

I find quite interesting to talk about these kinds of issues. These are the issues that will be effecting us as we are the hard core base that buys scores.

ChrisN: I would be interested to hear what you think about my idea of producing more expensive versions of scores for the collector market.

My previous post was made only after personal feelings got in the way of the issue. Once those take over a thread and get ugly, this then is when I take action.

I am pleased to see it's gone the opposite way! Very happy to see people want to keep to the point and not go on and on about someone's personality. Keep up the good work!

Now, to get back on topic, just how many of you are really dissatisfied with the most recent Varese issue of the Conan the Barbarian soundtrack? I think it's great, and don't mind that there may be missing music.

PeterK

I do think there is more to be said about the CD/DVD issue, and I've been thinking about it for many weeks, even talked to certain friends about it, but I'm not ready to post. Count your blessings, guys. (Honestly, it's not about ripping into the way things are already done -- it's just a certain feeling I have that the intrinsic nature of the field is changing VERY dramatically. Once I've cooked it enough, I'll serve it.)

I have no troubles with dealing with folks who don't share my opinions and if you ever want to ask me a question,your free to email me.

The problem many folks (even PeterK) have with me is that I don't back down when I believe something and I won't get on my knees and kiss someone's ass just to make them a happy camper.

I also tell fans alot of things that they just don't want to either hear or accept and I don't candycoat it and that really upsets some folks.

I'm a "in your face" kind of person, I make no apologies for that, I'll challenge your opinions,ask for facts to support your statements and in general will be a pain in the ass to arrogant fanboys who think their opinions should be accepted as hard facts.

Regards

They are very much appreciated.

Ford,

The idea came up along time ago but never went anywhere.

Too Bad, nice score.

Since you seem to be so demanding that you are given nothing but facts, give us some facts to back up your statement. You said;

"The Conan CD still sells rather well and he does see income from that
and Why do something that that will hurt the sales of something you make
money on."

What are your facts that the increased sell of DVDs with isolated scores has hurt the sales of normal OSTs? Give us some numbers that prove you are correct in thinking this.

I myself don't have any facts on this matter and don't claim to, that is why I am interested in discussing it. I keep an open mind on this subject because we all have the same goal and that is the advancement of the music that we love, and the recognition of the composers who write this music. What I do not appreciate is this holier than thou attitude that Ford has always had and that ChrisN is showing now.

I know Ford's credentials in the film music business, he obviously knows more about the business than probably anyone else on this board. Is that an excuse for his constant condescending attitude, no, but those of us who have known Ford have learned to ignore it.

But who is ChrisN? You say in your post that you are in someway affiliated with MGM Music, what do you do there? Have you the kind of inside knowledge that Ford is privilege to?

Dan (UK)

Chris Neel
MGM Music

ChrisN: I would be interested to hear what you think about my idea of producing more expensive versions of scores for the collector market.

I think it's a great idea. Lukas is already doin so with his FSM releases. It's just a matter of whether the costs to produce these records will balance out in the end.
For example, the score from Species by Chris Young. I think it's a fabulous score, but the reuse would be so high that we wouldn't see a profit on its release after the reuse and production costs are figured in. I know what you're all thinking, then why not put the entire score on the DVD? Well, 5 years from now, when I could get a deal on the reuse from the AFM, you'd all have the bootleg made from the ISO track on the DVD. FYI, they don't, as of yet, pay performance income on this ISO track due to the fact that this is an A/V release not a phonorecord. As soon as the composers figure out that their underscore for the film is being used as a marketing tool for the DVD, this will become a major issue.
But I digress, collector editions are a great idea. We are looking at doing some of these right now.
Stay tuned.

quote:

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Originally posted by MWRuger:
Chris,

Why are re-use fees so much lower after five years? Is there a sliding scale for all fees or is it a deal by deal basis?

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Let's take the score from "Mystery Alaska." Not likely to get a release on CD. Ever.

What's wrong with there being an isolated score on the DVD?

Yeah, I'll make a copy of it. But no one is going to get hurt. And those few of us who recognize high quality music will have the opportunity to listen to this fine score by Carter Burwell.

Scott

quote:

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Originally posted by Marc Flake:
ChrisN:

Let's take the score from "Mystery Alaska." Not likely to get a release on CD. Ever.

What's wrong with there being an isolated score on the DVD?

Yeah, I'll make a copy of it. But no one is going to get hurt. And those few of us who recognize high quality music will have the opportunity to listen to this fine score by Carter Burwell.

Marc

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Carter Burwell will. He won't get paid mechanicals, his writers share, on the DVD sales here in the US. As far as "Mystery Alaska"not being released, there wasn't a soundtrack for the original "Maginificent Seven" until recently. It's awfully hard to predict the future as to what will be released. You could possibly see "Mystery Alaska" one day. You decrease the possibility of seeing it by making a CD copy of the ISO track. Are you going to make more than one? "Oh, I love that score, can I have a copy? I'll trade you a "Species" for it".
It's just my opinion, but I say the music track should be mixed with the effects track, just as you see/hear it in the picture. You can listen to the score along with the film, the way it was meant to be listened to.
I've got to tell you all, I enjoy the chance to talk to the film music fans and collectors. Drop me an email anytime.

All I wanted was to know what exactly you did at MGM music, for all I knew you were a janitor there. Now that I know what you do there I can see why you have inside knowledge on these kind of issues.

I still have one question though;

Do composers see residual income for the scores they write? I didn't think they made money off the sales of the OSTs. I was under the impression that they got paid once, for the actual score and then the production company owned all rights to that score. Then the production company would either produce an OST themselves or sell the rights to a third party like Varese.

Also, you mentioned Tomorrow Never Dies, I would like to point out that a lot of people purchased not only the original OST but also the recently released expanded edition of that score, despite the fact that the DVD has isolated score.

All I wanted was to know what exactly you did at MGM music, for all I knew you were a janitor there. Now that I know what you do there I can see why you have inside knowledge on these kind of issues.

I still have one question though;

Do composers see residual income for the scores they write?

Absolutely. They receive their writers share of the performance income.

I appreciate the info, but this makes it more byzantine than ever when it comes to figuring out if the score will ever appear.

I understand your position, but from a fan point of view, we just want the music. I waited over 15 years for a Ghostbuster score that never appeared. I wanted one when I saw the movie in the theater. There still isn't a legal release. So its a Bootleg or nothing.

For us, Iso scores on the DVD represent our best hope for hearing scores from movies that don't have score releases. Personally, I don't really care about isolated score on Conan or LA Confidential or even The Mummy. I have the score release and it represents enough of the score for me to get a good taste of it. But if Ghostbusters had had a DVD Iso Score I would have bought just to hear that track. I would have paid a couple of extra bucks for it if you can assure me the composer and orchestra gets a cut.