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      Which Rambo?

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    Topic:   Which Rambo?

     Darth Fart
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    Which Rambo should I get?

    Is Rambo2 the expanded edition?

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    posted 03-15-2000 12:49 AM PT (US)     

     SPOR2
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    There are three films. There are 3 seperate soundtracks. All three have been expanded. And, it goes without saying, that all three are must haves.

    First Blood, with the additional cue, is produced by INTRADA
    Rambo: First Blood 2, with 15 extra minutes, is produced by SILVA SCREEN
    Rambo III, in its entirety, is produced by INTRADA

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    posted 03-15-2000 01:11 AM PT (US)     

     Foobsie
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    Generally I am more in favor of the Rambo III, with its use off odd-meters as an action katalyst. But all in all they are equally the same quality. Also note the fact that much of the music heard in the movie in Rambo III were actually tidbits of Rambo II.
    I think you'll actually love the more softer elegic played out Rambo theme on the III disc. It's like the guy finally has the peace he was searchin' for since First Blood..... but wait, there comes trouble again....... and finally returning to that peaceful rendition of the Rambo theme. It boasts a certain level of respect for the character.

    I suggest getting them all. Rambo I is a classic, Rambo II expanded was a long overdue gift and Rambo III is already a gift (for it already was expanded, thank you Intrada.)
    You might have a bit more trouble finding Rambo I, but it's out there.

    The Rambo series is the Indiana Jones of Goldsmith! (cometh to think of it......)

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    posted 03-15-2000 01:12 AM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    What they said above.

    All three are cool -- FIRST BLOOD is one of my VERY VERY VERY favorite Goldsmith scores -- RAMBO II a bit less so, RAMBO III a bit more so. All are terrific, and they're all of a piece. You won't be sorry. Lay in the whole pile of em. (Make sure in every case they're the EXPANDED ones: FIRST BLOOD and RAMBO III from Intrada; RAMBO: FIRST BLOOD PART II recently expanded by Silva Screen.)

    [This message has been edited by H Rocco (edited 15 March 2000).]

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    posted 03-15-2000 01:12 AM PT (US)     

     Jack
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    All three are good, but I prefer Rambo 2. It just connects more emotionally with me.

    So you have three opinions, each prefering a different one.

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    posted 03-15-2000 04:30 AM PT (US)     

     Darth Fart
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    I'm going for Rambo 3 first.


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    posted 03-15-2000 06:26 AM PT (US)     

     mlw
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    Rambo III the film was filled out with at best one partial cue from Rambo II. I know one bit often thought of as Rambo II music is just a portion of a longer Rambo III cue featuring the John Rambo heroic theme. The theatrical release may differ from the 1990s letterbox laser, for all I know. I too was under the impression much of G's new material was replaced but in fact almost all of the important cues are there if way buried. Flaming Village lost the cool first section to the sound effects, but the last half of it is there.

    First Blood is probably the tighter vision, certainly it is a massive, gut-crunchingly brutal piece of music with some beautiful passages. More like grit-encrusted 70s material. The empathetic approach from the inside out.

    Rambo II is popular (Jeff Bond cites it as "nimble"). I personally found it overblown in the worst sense of a composer's boredom, pile driving ear fatigue. Millions of notes just sprayed out. Liked the asiatic opening and the first few cues with that 70s blaxploitation disco string figure. The "Peace in my Life" melody never really seemed like Goldsmith to me, no heart (hey that's from 6 Degrees of Separation) or conviction. (I really liked the movie though as a cartoon, goofy anti-communist, anti-Russian, anti-CIA, anti-government politics of the pic aside, George Cosmatos rules!)

    Rambo III is my choice of Rambos. Too long but beautifully structured with an almost Homeric, elegiac feel. The Jupiter Rising Rambo chords work in the best bombast fashion. The afghan lyrical cues are threaded like some of G's best fatalistic military threnodies. Possibly the first big Goldsmith score moving toward that gleaming minimal style of his 90s work, less note-y in this instance but also achieving a bigger sound as the broad gestures cover a wider expanse in a sense giving the movie form, as usual.

    [This message has been edited by mlw (edited 17 March 2000).]

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    posted 03-15-2000 10:21 AM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    "George Cosmatos rules" -- oh, you rarely fail to cheer me up, Michael. You're probably one of us few who appreciated TOMBSTONE, or even LEVIATHAN (patchy, but fun). COBRA is another of my particular underrated favorites, a bizarre, hallucinatory horror film masquerading as a cop movie. I even liked Sylvester Levay's monotonous score (bump-bump-BUMP! bada-bada-ba-BUMP!)

    My memory of RAMBO III was that the last battle with the tank or the copter or whatever it was (only saw it once, when it came out) was retracked with II; otherwise, the score is pretty much the same as represented on the Intrada CD. (I remember picking up the Scotti Bros. CD and being dismally disappointed at how much wasn't there -- "The Boot," for example, a gorgeous action cue, one of many. Intrada to the rescue, eh.)

    You pinpointed my own problems with the RAMBO II music pretty well -- "sarcastic" isn't the word I'd have picked, but it's pretty close to being right on the money. I thought at the time that RAMBO II was a weird sort of parody of the awesomely heartfelt original FIRST BLOOD music; the overuse of electronics didn't help, but neither did the picture's relative lack of heart. Once Rambo became a cartoon character (both in the live action and in the literal sense), people tended to forget how sincere the original FIRST BLOOD really was, and how sharp a director Ted Kotcheff can be. (The recent Susan Faludi book, "Stiffed," includes an interesting section on the genesis of Rambo, from David Morrell's novel through the various scripts that were written -- everyone from David Rabe to Stallone seemed to have hacked at it.)

    Second unit director Peter Macdonald wound up directing RAMBO III after Russell Mulcahy (of HIGHLANDER fame) was dismissed. It's the least interesting or fun of the three pictures for any number of reasons, but compared to the tersely professional Kotcheff and the admirably loopy Cosmatos, Macdonald had/has no style at all -- what he does best is stage explosions, and let the big boys take the credit (a source on the European set for David Seltzer's ridiculous SHINING THROUGH told me that Macdonald really ghost-directed a LOT of that picture; Seltzer ran into considerable budget trouble and, I've noticed, hasn't been allowed to direct since.)

    [This message has been edited by H Rocco (edited 15 March 2000).]

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    posted 03-15-2000 11:26 AM PT (US)     

     joan hue
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    Glad "Hank" mentioned David Morrell's novel FIRST BLOOD. I found it wonderful. In a way it is too bad Stallone messed with the original story. If you haven't read it, please do. Very different from the movie and a great and ironic survival story. Of course, had they filmed the novel, there would have been no sequels. I personally prefer the music in Rambo II and III, but I thought First Blood was the best of the three movies. JG introduces the Rambo action theme in First Blood only once in the movie (that I could hear)..when Stallone gets on the motorcycle and rides out of town. I loved that cue and wanted to hear more. Fortunately he expanded that action melody in the next two movies.

    NP Rambo II

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    posted 03-15-2000 12:10 PM PT (US)     

     mlw
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    I read Morrell's novel before I saw the movie. I don't care much for the genre but I always respected Morrell's skills as a storyteller. When I was reading (lifting?) Tom Clancy's best novel, Without Remorse, I remember thinking Morrell's original Rambo was a classic of the format. I understand the First Blood DVD has a good commentary by Morrell in which he pinpoints the exact moment when the current commercial film style was born. I wanted to get the disc but the Dolby Digital 2.0 screechy thin soundtrack would just make me mad.

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    posted 03-15-2000 12:22 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    In fairness, Stallone DID have Rambo die at the end of his script, but preview audiences hated it so much that they went to the "alternate" ending, which Stallone had also crafted because he had a feeling that might happen. The producers were running scared at the time -- terrified that audiences wouldn't connect with the Rambo character at ALL, would find him merely psychotic. A big part of Goldsmith's job was specifically to write music that made Rambo sympathetic.

    Joan, I wonder if you've read Morrell's most harrowing novel, TESTAMENT, an even more intense and detail-heavy story of survival in the mountains (the characters are a family who is being pursued by murderous white supremacists. They run across arguably even WORSE characters as the book goes on. I'd argue that Morrell backs away from the single most horrifying, but brutally logical, plot development -- which is to say, the development doesn't happen. But I could practically sense him setting it up and then thinking to himself "no, that's too much." Either that or the editor got to him.)

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    posted 03-15-2000 12:24 PM PT (US)     

     Marian Schedenig
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    I only know #2 so far (got it last week), but I have to defend it! #1 and #3 may be far better - I have yet to hear them - but #2 is a wonderful Goldsmith action score! (Of course, forget that awful song at the end...)

    FSM boarders, remember the "Fart noises" thread?

    NP: Canto General (Mikis Theodorakis, GREEEAT!)

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    posted 03-15-2000 12:41 PM PT (US)     

     Marian Schedenig
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    I only know #2 so far (got it last week), but I have to defend it! #1 and #3 may be far better - I have yet to hear them - but #2 is a wonderful Goldsmith action score! (Of course, forget that awful song at the end...)

    FSM boarders, remember the "Fart noises" thread?

    NP: Canto General (Mikis Theodorakis, GREEEAT!)

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    posted 03-15-2000 12:48 PM PT (US)     

     joan hue
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    H R,

    After FIRST BLOOD, I read several more Morrell novels and then quit him because I felt he was sliding in terms of plot and writing. But I'll track down TESTAMENT and give it a try. (Better be better that YOR )

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    posted 03-15-2000 05:52 PM PT (US)     

     joan hue
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    Enjoyed H Rocco's story on why the ending of the novel FIRST BLOOD had to be changed for the movie and audience satisfaction. I would put forward another novel/movie that must have done the same thing. I thought A.J.Quinnell's novel MAN ON FIRE was wonderful, graphic and cruel. In a rather poor movie, the writers "hollywoodized" the ending. Too bad. (mlw, I really enjoyed Scott's music in the movie. Gracias.)

    NP Still The Classic John Barry

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    posted 03-15-2000 10:31 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    Joan, have you heard John Scott's MAN ON FIRE compact disc? It is quite wonderful. Would that we had discussed this when I was putting together "the package." Oh well, we have much time yet to go.

    I agree that Morrell's novels of the past several years have been kind of tedious -- he's found his new niche (espionage) and is writing accordingly. Well, we all have to make a living. TESTAMENT, BLOOD OATH, and THE TOTEM, however, are all astonishing, little-heralded works that are WELL WORTH searching out. You heard it here first!

    NP: THE FLIM-FLAM MAN (I am too lazy to look up the name of the composer, but I think the label that issued it uses the letter M in its signature)

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    posted 03-16-2000 12:16 AM PT (US)     

     mlw
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    My Rambo III laserdisc has the Troutman rescue by helicopter scored with music that sounds like Rambo II but incorporates the new Russian theme; also the last helicopter/tank/explosions number has the same music (like Rambo II's helicopter fight) but only for a few seconds. I really don't know that it's National Philharmonic Rambo II tracks or rescore.

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    posted 03-16-2000 10:36 AM PT (US)     

     Darth Fart
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    Why no end title music for Rambo2 on the CD? Didn't JG record the music?

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    posted 10-27-2000 12:49 AM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    I've heard rumors about this, but am not sure there is one. Goldsmith must have known by now that there'd be a song for the end, and hence no score required. Inasmuch as Stallone did have direct collaboration with Goldsmith this time (he didn't on FIRST BLOOD), he probably would have indicated that he wanted a song for brother Frank to sing over the end title.

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    posted 10-27-2000 10:50 AM PT (US)     

     Nicolai P. Zwar
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    Mr. Rocco stated my sentiments about all three "Rambo" releases up there.

    By the way, I think it doesn't matter whether one picks up the Intrada release or the recent Varese re-release of First Blood; they both feature the full score in the same sound quality.

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    posted 10-27-2000 12:43 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    In that event, everyone and anyone should get the cheaper one! (The origination of this thread predates the Varese release. I'm just pleased to see it considered worthy of yet another rerelease.)

    This has probably been addressed elsewhere, but I must ask: does the Varese version have liner notes, and if so, by whom? Those in the Intrada version were serviceable, but unremarkable. Hell, I wish I could have gotten a crack at it. FIRST BLOOD is my favorite Goldsmith score after PAPILLON and the first STAR TREK.

    NP: MEMPHIS BELLE (George Fenton)

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    posted 10-27-2000 12:48 PM PT (US)     

     Nicolai P. Zwar
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    Yep, it's up there among what's-his-name's very best. Don't know anything about what kind of liner notes the Varese release has, I got the Intrada already for some time.

    [Message edited by Nicolai P. Zwar on 10-27-2000]

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    posted 10-27-2000 01:31 PM PT (US)     

     Marian Schedenig
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    The Varese release does have one page and a half of liner notes by Robert Townson. Serviceable, but not too interesting, I think.

    BTW, the same day I bought this CD (on Monday), I saw Night Crossing in the same store - for $34. Is it that rare? And how complete is the disc?

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    posted 10-27-2000 02:43 PM PT (US)     

     Mark Olivarez
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    Marian, this is a must have score!!! It is one of Goldsmith's most underrated scores in my opinion. There are two versions by Intrada. The expanded version has 19 tracks. If this is the one you saw I would recommend you get this score.

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    posted 10-27-2000 05:33 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    THIRTY FOUR DOLLARS? Marian, are you paying these kinds of prices all the time? I mean, I understand imports and all that, but still ...

    You might pay less by ordering directly from the album's issuer, Intrada. The thing should still be widely available.

    In any event, make sure it's the EXPANDED, REMASTERED edition -- Intrada reissued their own 1987 album with an additional piece of music. (I still don't have this version, alas.)

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    posted 10-27-2000 05:39 PM PT (US)     

     Marian Schedenig
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    No, I don't usually pay that much, that's why I asked; CD prices here are now about the same as they are in the U.S., although they haven't changed since before the Euro was introduced, when 1 USD wasn't 15 ATS, like now, but only 10. So, some years ago, CDs here were really expensive for Americans, now they're about the same.

    I KNOW this is a must-have score, I have the First Flight track and love it. I just want to know if I should go with the official release, or if there's so much missing that I'd rather get the boot (if there is one).

    The shop where I saw this is a bit more expensive than others, but the usual CDs still go for slightly less than ATS 300 there, compared to the 500 for Night Crossing. They sometimes have rare items, but I missed all of them, like Williams' Heidi. So the only reason why I buy there is that I go there hoping I might find something that's otherwise hard to get, and ending up buying a score which I'm sure I could get for $3 less at some other place, just because I HATE it to leave a CD store without having bought a CD (stores have made much money from me that way already, but I also have bought many scores which I might not have gotten otherwise).

    (I have never paid $34 for one single CD; I can get two normal-priced score CDs for that)

    NP: Supergirl (Jerry Goldsmith) - Thanks Mark!

    [Message edited by Marian Schedenig on 10-27-2000]

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    posted 10-27-2000 06:04 PM PT (US)     

     Marian Schedenig
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    I just checked Intrada's website for the Night Crossing album. The cover is the same as the one I saw in the store, and Intrada has it for $22, less than the price I saw it for, but still considerably more than the usual CD price; Intrada lists it as Limited Edition?

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    posted 10-27-2000 06:21 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    Just followed your link. That's probably as cheap as you're going to get it, Marian, short of a miracle. And that is indeed the same one we've been talking about (the cover art is the same, but the LETTERING for Goldsmith's credit was changed a bit -- that, and the additional cue listed on the back, are the main ways to tell them apart.) I'm not 100% certain the one you saw in the store IS the expanded edition ... maybe it's more expensive because it's the original version, and therefore a collectible? (Not that I'd ever buy an album with LESS music on it, just for the sake of HAVING it.)

    Did a bit of checking ... Footlights, for example, has it for $25. Probably Intrada's deal is the best you will find. (Curiously, Footlights also claims to stock the previous version, though I don't know if they actually have any on hand. Anyway, no point in having it when the longer version is available.)

    Intrada tends to charge more for special editions like this, e.g. FIRST BLOOD, INCHON and KING SOLOMON'S MINES.

    [Message edited by H Rocco on 10-27-2000]

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    posted 10-27-2000 06:56 PM PT (US)     

     Marian Schedenig
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    Yeah, I didn't expect to find an Intrada disc anywhere cheaper than at Intrada's. One question remains: Is it complete? Or at least complete enough?

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    posted 10-28-2000 04:32 AM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    I believe the Special Edition to be as complete as it gets.

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    posted 10-28-2000 12:15 PM PT (US)     

     Marian Schedenig
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    Thanks. I'll have to get it, then, I believe.

    NP: Switchback (Basil Poledouris)

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    posted 10-28-2000 12:24 PM PT (US)     

     Aaron R. Brown
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    I'm a big fan of Goldsmith so I have all three of the Rambo scores. I like Rambo III most. It seems to me a little more intelligent and is more orchestral then Rambo: First Blood-Part 2. I'm sure all of you know that Intrada doesn't have the score First Blood anymore. Varse has it now.

    First Blood is an average Goldsmith score to me but it has its times. For example, the guitar and wind solos are very nice. I don't think Goldsmith used the guitar in the sequals.

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    posted 10-28-2000 04:15 PM PT (US)     

     jonathan_little
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    Night Crossing is a must have, so make sure you pick that one up!

    As for the Rambos, I personally like the second. I also like the third quite a bit, but the performance of the second (National Philharmonic Orchestra, I think) is far better than the performance done on the third (Hungarians). Bad notes annoy me, which is the only reason why I think the second is better than the third. (The third also features the electronic "fart noise" that I also don't really care for.) They're all great, but if I had to chose one, I'd get the second.

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    posted 10-28-2000 06:54 PM PT (US)     

     Darth Fart
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    I quite like the Fart noise. I think Rambo 3 is the best I've heard in the series. I have to get First Blood now.

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    posted 10-29-2000 02:03 AM PT (US)     
     

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