mlw is quoting a line from Lethal Weapon, by Martin Riggs.

Yes, I'm sure Jesus walked on this earth, but did he really perform those amazing stunts and tricks? Unless ILM had a branch there around that time, highly unlikely. I'm sure he was a good man who did good things. And I'm sure he believed he was the son of God. And I'm sure his disciples and the people around him were amazing storytellers, experts in marketing and hype. When the stories were written, wonder how much were added in awe, to make him look real good and amazing? You think? Why not?

Fact: With Christianity this world became more evil. The Pope even admitted recently how terrible God's followers have behaved throughout history, the crusades, the witchtrials etc., all thanks to the Good book, which tells us "to be good to our next of kin." Right. Seems like you could and CAN get away with anything in the name of God. Christians are sinners like everybody else, but they can get away with it 'cause "Jesus died for me on the cross. I'm a Christian and I'm forgiven. Heck, I'll go burn me somebody right now." Be ashamed.

If there ever was a God, he surely must have left us. Yes, the planet is decaying. I see more signs of a devil than of a God, that's for sure. Just pick up today's newspapers, turn on the TV. Realitycheck: Religion creates nothing but conflicts, this would sure be a better planet without it. If I wrote this some hundred years ago, I'd be killed. I mean, there is NOTHING in the history of Christianity that mankind can be proud of. It's doing bad things while HOPING.

Many of my friends are Christians. They are good friends. They know me, what I stand for, and they respect that. And I respect them. But whenever I try to even HINT that there are other possibilities in this world they treat me like an inferior being, and guess what place I end up when I die. It's this refusal that annoys me so much. I see on this board the opposite. Christians who ARE willing to discuss the Bible and it's meanings. Maybe Christians are more fanatical here where I live (I come from a small place), I don't know, but reading these posts are refreshing.

I think the biggest horror show of all time is the Revelations. You find the most gruesome stuff in there. Enough monsters to make Rick Baker work overtime for the rest of his life. No wonder so many believe. The things that will happen if they don't surely scare them out of there wits. Like the mark of the beast, 666. It's in the Bible, so it must be true, meaning "The Omen" is not a fiction film? Remember the uproar when the film came out? Christians were scared ****less ('scuse my French) and shrinks worked overtime. Parents checked their kids for the mark, I'm not kidding. If you believe, this film could be true. The Bible tries to scare us into believing, it's propaganda on a high level.

What I'm sick of is "I must spread the Word, 'cause the Bible tells me so" attitude. I don't need that, and tribes in a jungle don't need that. I'm doing fine, in fact great. The tribes in the jungle might believe in their "Treegods" and you know what? They're doing fine. And I'm sure when the day comes, when we all pass on, we'll all be fine, Christian or not.

(I've always loved Mexican food...and you're making me hungry!)

By the way, Taco..."The Omen" was definitely a work of fiction. The writers used (and abused) Scripture throughout the film series, playing very fast & loose with the prophetic texts.
It got to be pretty embarrassing at the end of "The Final Conflict", when Damien is running around those ruins, yelling "NAZARENE!"...did he expect to see a baby crawling around in there?

As far as some of your other comments are concerned, I'd like to respond to them here on the board or through your e-mail address. Would you give me permission to e-mail you?

Scott

NP: Phantom Menace *****/*****

btw: I am also a Christian (thanks Jeron)

[This message has been edited by Scott (edited 21 March 2000).]

Does anybody realize that Darwin recanted his evolution theory on his deathbed? said it was a bunch of hooey.
I believe in SOME evolution, but not to the extent that all the people like Carl Sagan and Stephen Jay Gould do (or did). Obviuosly, people are bigger and live longer these days than in previous eras.
In fact, there are many people who think the world is only 12-15,000 years old (I'm not one of those). I just refuse to think that man came from ape, when in fact, apes still exist. I don't see how you look at a bunch of dusty old bones and see that, and present it as immutable fact.

I, too, am a Christian. Southern Baptist in fact.
I am not ashamed of what others did in the past in the name of Christianity. The Pope has no reason to apologize for anything.
Realize the Catholic church way wrong and don't do it again. That's the problem with the church back then. it was WAY too powerful and could do anything it wanted, as was very corrupt.
Apologizing won't bring back the people that were killed over these last few centuries.
And I don't see the city of Rome apologizing to Christians for the cruelty pushed on them in the Colosseum and the Appian Way by Nero and other emperors, and I don't expect them to.

you're right, Christians are sinners like anyone else. we are human, and susceptible to the same tempations as anyone else.
It's called free will. Make your choices, suffer the consequences.

the intricacies of the world, genetics, biology, chemistry, the universe in general, the way the earth works, etc. is too awesome for me to believe that there is no God.

well, I'm done

BTW -- a lot of church music really REALLY sucks these days.

innocuous movie line of the day: "Christ lost."

NP: Robocop by Poledouris-- nice little Jesus story, but he gets to come back from the dead and blow everyone away!

I was wondering how this thread grew to 120+ postings. I imagined discussions of all the many "Red Planet" movies and their associated scores.

Imagine my wonder at how FOUR pages of this board gets invovled in something so "off-topic." At least everyone's keeping their cool, though. Good work.

Now, to make this thread even longer, shall we discuss "The Rapture"?

Jurassic Park is a favorite of event-type movies. Super elegant and technically beautiful. I loved the neo-classical dissertation on light and reflection of light that informs the entire fabric of the film. It's about illusions again, right? The usual Spielbergian ruminations on self-worth in the face of residual effects of the deed (the dialectic that would plateau into Saving Private Ryan later on) are here fused into the plot with Hammond's little Tempest act serving as stand-in for Spielberg's self-interrogation. When Malcolm puts Hammond on the spot with the speech about lack of humility for futzing up the natural order its metaphorised through the act of making a pic with the most pristine and life-like special effects to that time, self-parodied with the shot of the Jurassic Park merchandise which almost every so-called critic was baited with to respond in amusingly resentful fashion (the joke is still on them-- odd how the most apologetic of the great directors is met with such flat-out HATRED). If anything is made possible by illusory means, then responsibility for making them is something of a necessity. Some might think. A light entertainment but not a mindless one.

[This message has been edited by mlw (edited 20 March 2000).]

I mean what was that director thinking? Who ws he making the movie for? It surely offended believers and non-believers alike.

Music was as depressing as the movie, IIRC.

Marc

Amen! People today have forgotten that hymns are meant to be spiritual communications with God. Instead, they get caught up in hand-clapping, guitar-strumming, "inspirational" trends. Joyous it may be, but is it *spiritual*?

Fortunately, I'm Orthodox. We still practice Byzantine hymnology from the early centuries of the church ... the music is entirely mutable. It's shaped around the hymn for <dramatic voice> Maximum Spiritual Impact! Seriously, most people would probably find it boring and repetetive. I find it medetative and beautiful. It really helps you attain a reverent mindset. You feel like you're growing closer, more attuned to God, as opposed to clamoring for his attention.

There are many old hymns that are timeless, because they are based upon the everlasting Word of God. They will always be relevant.

However, there are also many old hymns whose time has come and gone. They were relevant for a generation or two, but their time has passed.
To use them NOW in this age, is akin to dragging a dead horse around behind you.

God is doing a NEW THING in this end-time generation. I'm not talking about rock music, I'm talking about Worshipping God In Spirit and In Truth!

TRADITION has the power to NULLIFY the Word Of God! (Matthew 15 : 6)

( "hand-clapping, guitar-strumming, 'inspirational' trends. Joyous it may be, but is it *spiritual*? )

Hand clapping signifies "BLESSING The Lord" according to the Hebrew Scriptures. Our worship is to BLESS HIM!

Stringed instruments are cited throughout Scripture as being used to praise & worship.

JOY...well, Wedge, "The JOY of the Lord is YOUR STRENGTH"! (Nehemiah 8 : 10) IF there is any difference between "Joyous" and "Spiritual", I assure you that it cannot be found anywhere at all in the Bible!

So is FAITH, and so is LOVE.

They are POWERFUL forces that CHANGE LIVES when put into ACTION!

TRADITION has within it the power to nullify these REAL forces...causing individuals to fall into line and worship RELIGION instead of worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth!

Just a thought! Of course, it's 1:20 here and I need to go to bed. So who knows.

I'm not sure you understand, Chris. The hymns, music and all, are no less relevant now than they were centuries ago. In the hands of experienced psaltis, and a reverent congreation, they remain as alive and vibrant as ever. I wonder if you are familiar with Byzantine hymnology? The verses are as timeless as God.

"God is doing a NEW THING in this end-time generation. I'm not talking about rock music, I'm talking about Worshipping God In Spirit and In Truth!"

How is Worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth new? As I understand it, God does NOT change. And end-time generation? "you do not know when the appointed time will come." Mark 13:33. Of course, we must always remain vigilant, and ready, so it's kind of beside the point.

"TRADITION has the power to NULLIFY the Word Of God! (Matthew 15 : 6)"

Sorry, Chris, but that quote is taken COMPLETELY out-of-context. It refers to SECULAR traditions. Christ was chastising the Pharisees for praising God with their lips, but not in their hearts -- the same grave symptom that is infecting the masses, as the music becomes more important than the words. Maybe that's not the way things are in YOUR church, but it's (unfortunately) happening all across the nation. As you've stated, WORDS are of the UTMOST importance.

"Hand clapping signifies "BLESSING The Lord" according to the Hebrew Scriptures. Our worship is to BLESS HIM!"

Waittaminute ... according to your own words, wouldn't that be the tradition of ages past? Nowadays hand-clapping usually signifies an appreciation for human performance. But that, too is beside the point. My point is: it's hard for me to focus my attention on the Lord God with a thundering BAM!! pounding into my ears every .75 seconds.

"Stringed instruments are cited throughout Scripture as being used to praise & worship."

So are unadaulterated voices.

"JOY...well, Wedge, "The JOY of the Lord is YOUR STRENGTH"! (Nehemiah 8 : 10) IF there is any difference between "Joyous" and "Spiritual", I assure you that it cannot be found anywhere at all in the Bible!"

A man takes JOY in, say, eating a hot dog ... but if his joy never moves beyond the Earthly and mundane, he affronts God. In the same manner, worship on a superficial level is largely meaningless. Worship must be in THOUGHT as much as it is on the LIPS.

Don't misunderstand me -- ANY worshipper can fall into this trap, no matter WHAT form the music takes. By the same token, a properly motivated worshipper will use the music at hand to their best advantage.

Wedge, you and I are in agreement, but we proceed from opposite ends of the spectrum in our methods of praise and worship. Nothing wrong there as long as our hearts are in the right place, which I believe they are.
When you said "most people would probably find it boring and repetetive", those words often indicate the kind of hollowness that is found throughout mainstream denominational congregations. I was raised in one of those.
I believe that we both agree that the hymns that are based upon Scripture are timeless, and will never be irrelevant.

"TRADITION has the power to NULLIFY the Word Of God!(Matthew 15 : 6)" Sorry, Chris, but that quote is taken COMPLETELY out-of-context. It refers to SECULAR traditions."

Out of context in that it does not apply to YOUR heart attitude, perhaps, but the point still stands. Jesus said that tradition has within it the power to nullify God's Word. He didn't say that all traditions are wrong or bad, He simply pointed once again to the attitude of the heart, which is what God is most interested in.

"A man takes JOY in, say, eating a hot dog"

No he doesn't.
He may find pleasure, delight, perhaps even a measure of happiness in the physical act of eating that hot dog. But there's a huge difference between those qualities...and joy.
Real, Biblical joy is the inner strength of the believer. It is a spiritual force which proceeds from being in the presence of God!
It is possible to be happy, yet joyless.

"In the same manner, worship on a superficial level is largely meaningless. Worship must be in THOUGHT as much as it is on the LIPS."

Absolutely. Except that Scripture takes that one step further...to the heart. The mind and the heart are not the same. Mental assent is not the same as faith. Faith is found in the heart of the believer. The thoughts of our minds and the attitude of our heart are to be focused upon Him.

"Or is reverence no longer necessary for this new-fangled age?"

(Oh ... and you're right, of course, about head, lips and HEART. My bad.)

I still affirm that the Byzantine Liturgy is a glorious, transcendent experience. You won't hear a single clap, but hands are very important. We raise our hands to God; we join in the sign of the cross; whether priest or parishoner, *touch* has a very sacred, very significant place in worship. We know that celebration is physical as well as spiritual. I don't recall Christ ever clapping, but BOY did he have busy hands!

And we raise our voices to the lord. Prayer is strong and vibrant, and the service is punctuated with exalted proclomations to God. These are usually bellowed out in some sort of musical tone, not shouted, but the enthusiasm and effect is the same.

Clapping and Shouting may be two ways to express important liturgical ideas, but I hope you'll realize from my words that they are not the ONLY ways. Faith is a tree with many branches; there is more than one way to climb it. Just so you keep your footing, and never lose sight of the top.

"How is Worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth new? As I understand it, God does NOT change."

I would very much like to experience it!
Maybe one day I can visit your services...

Yet I reckognize that this is not for every Christian. Many people do not have the personality to be charismatic in their worship, which is probably why we have different denominations as well as why Jesus had twelve discilples all with rather different characters.

Whatever you choose, if you do it for God and not for man, you'll be ok.

More to the issue about creationism and evolution. I do not believe in evolution, yet I agree with Jeron, it could be a possibility. If it turns out to be a fact, well, it really doesn’t prove God does not exist or that this world was not created by him.

I have studied many religions and find the bible to be the most accurate and foolproof document talking about God. In fact, if we take the fulfillment of just thirteen bible predictions and the possibility that they could have accurate by chance, we find that the bible is 10 to the power of 58 times more reliable than the second law of thermodynamics on just these thirteen predictions. Not bad.

Since 1990 there have been several new discoveries in the field of cosmology that have confirmed the Big Bang theory or at least gotten us closer to the correct model. Many scientist have been converted on this fact alone.

Lastly, if you were walking with your nephew through the woods and he found a watch asking where this came from, which sounds more likely:
a) A watchmaker made this
b) This watch came to be after millions of years of chance, where all the material just happened to come together and produce this working watch.

You make the choice.

Scott

It looked like this thread was OVER when you showed up with that "God Quote Quiz"...and if you had permitted us to GUESS the answers, we would probably be well over 200 posts by now!

So... if you have another quiz (that one was GREAT!)...PLEASE tease us with it, OK?

Since then, Scott has "COME OUT" as a "Charismatic" Christian, in announcing to everyone here that he actually speaks in tongues!

WHOA!

WHAT A FANATIC!!!

Now, that fact in itself could either KILL this thread for all eternity...OR...start it up all over again!

Start it up again?

HOW???

Because I too have been baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of "speaking in other tongues".

This is a totally, purely, SUPERNATURAL experience which is freely available to anyone who desires to partake of it.

It isn't simply "an experience", though.

It is a LIFE-CHANGING, Everlasting Bonding to Our Creator that will be with you throughout your entire lifetime here on Earth.

Baptism in the Holy Spirit provides you with a Direct connection with your Heavenly Father.

You will be given a prayer language which only HE can understand.

When you receive it, when you SPEAK it, you WILL KNOW that you are immediately connected to God Himself.

And you will never be alone again.

I know that ALL of the above sounds absolutely ridiculous to most of you...but because I have EXPERIENCED it...because it is ALL grounded in Holy Scripture...and because it has TRULY changed my life for the better in every way during the past 12 years (not a short time, I must say!), I wish to share it with anyone who happens to read this.

We ALL need as much HELP as we can get to go through this life...

Although my religious background -- what little there is of it -- is very different from yours, I appreciate your sharing your experience with us. And although I personally have no answers myself to these overwhelming questions, I'm not about to discount anyone else's answers, because for all I know, they may well be right.

But moving on . . . You asked for it; here it is . . .

GOD QUOTE QUIZ: THE SEQUEL (Give the name of the actor speaking, and the movie. Answers didn't used to be below, but they are now.)

(a) "There can't be any such thing as civilization unless people have got a conscience, because if people touch God anywhere, where is it except through their conscience? And what is anybody's conscience except a little piece of the conscience of all men that ever lived?"

(b) "Oh, I still believe, old man. In God and Mercy and all that. The dead are happier dead. They don't miss much here, poor devils."

(c) "Frank, were you on this religious kick at home, or did you crack up over here?"

(d) "Do you believe what that old man who was doing all the talking at the Oso Negro said the other night about gold changing a man's soul so that he ain't the same kind of guy as he was before finding it?"

(e) "It's true I haven't been a church-going man, and that's maybe a bad thing. And I wasn't married here today because my wife's . . . my wife's a Quaker. . . . But I've come here for help because there are people here. . ."

(f) "I was thrown out of N.Y.U. my freshman year for cheating on my metaphysics final, you know. I looked into the soul of the boy sitting next to me."

ANSWERS:

(a) Henry Fonda reading Dana Andrews' letter to his wife at the end of "The Ox-Bow Incident"
(b) Orson Welles speaking to Joseph Cotton in "The Third Man"
(c) Donald Sutherland questioning Robert Duvall in M*A*S*H
(d) Humphrey Bogart in "Treasure of the Sierra Madre"
(e) Gary Cooper in "High Noon"
(f) Woody Allen in "Annie Hall"

I am quite aware of McArthurs stance about charismatic Christianity (for lack of a better term). His church is not too far away from the Church on the Way which I attend. In fact he and my pastor Jack Hayford are friends if I'm not mistaken.

My position on this is simple. It's okay. If you don't want to believe in the manifistation of the Holy Spirit and the evidence of this by speaking in tongues, that is your choice. Call it lack of faith, ignorance or freedom of choice, whatever.

Bottom line is that speaking in tongues is a bible proven gift. Nowhere is there evidence that the gifts of the Holy Spirit died after the Apostelic Age.

As far as personal experience goes, I cannot begin to explain the emotional journey I have gone through because of (in part) spiritual language. It is almost a mystery really.

Many times I start praying in English and the Holy Spirit takes over. You just start speaking in tongues. Many times your emotiones change based on the conversation. Often you understand what is being communicated sometimes you don't know for sure, but you know it through feelings.

All i can say is, I hope everyone goes through this because it is just incredible the nearness of God you will be experiencing.

Case closed.

NP - GODZILLA by David Arnold

"It will not come upon everyone"
"...it is not essential for salvation"
"Do not pity me"
"Do not tell me I am in error"

The first two statements are absolutely correct. As for the third...get off it, you knucklehead! This is ME, CHRIS! Your Haiku Brother...OK? I'm not INTO pity, man! And you're certainly not into error either.
But I would like to clarify something, if you don't mind.

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"
Mark 16 : 17

Jesus stated this as an additional part of the Great Commission (though most churches cut that part out), and later the Apostle Paul, in his first letter to the Church in Corinth, said:

"I would that ye all spake with tongues,"
I Corinthians 14 : 5

The key word there is "all". Paul wanted every believer to evidence the gift of tongues because he understood it to be just that: a gift. And a very precious one indeed, coming directly from the Father, who withholds no good thing from His children.
It's a wonderful gift from God, and all you have to do is receive it...accept it...say "YES!" to it...reach out and embrace it... take it from the Father who holds it out for YOU TO TAKE!
There are many believers who will never receive this gift. Some are fearful of it. Some doubt. Others are condemned in their own hearts, and have difficulty receiving any good thing from God. There are many reasons why believers will not receive, but none of them are God's WILL! His Word makes it abundantly clear that He wants every one of His children to possess His gifts!

"I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh;"
Joel 2 : 28

And He continues to this day, pouring it out.

The only statement that you made, Wedge, that I will never understand (and I have heard it ad infinitum over the decades from countless other Christian believers) is, "it is not essential for salvation."

Of course it isn't.

Don't get me wrong, you're absolutely correct in that assertion.

Imagine your earthly father handing you a beautifully wrapped gift. Something he really wants you to have. You turn away, saying, "It's not essential. I don't need it." Your father would be crushed, wouldn't he? I know I would.

God, your heavenly Father, is holding out many beautiful gifts to YOU, Wedge...

NP: "Star Trek TMP" (expanded) By somebody named Goldfarb (?)

Oh, Chris ... Haiku Brother ... you see right through my melodrama! I would never *reject* a gift from God. There's just SO DARN MANY of them, it's hard to get them all open!