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Author	Topic: Goldenthal makes a Tit-us of himself

Steve Hughes Oscar® Winner	Have you heard Elliot Goldenthal's TITUS yet? I bought the CD yesterday and all I can think is... what was he on when he wrote this monsterous, overblown crap? I haven't seen the film (it was directed by Goldenthal's wife, Julie Taymor) but the images the music conjures up are horrific. There are some parts that sound like the Riddler's theme from Batman Forever, and some nice, lush orchestral passages, but on the whole it is a clash of styles, big band, sax riffs and it's a real mess. Avoid this one...
posted 01-13-2000 02:34 AM PT (US)

Lancelot Oscar® Winner	That would probably be consistant with Shakespeare's work. "Titus Andronicus" is the Shakespearean equivalent of "Texas Chainsaw Massacre"....
posted 01-13-2000 03:42 AM PT (US)

Shaun Rutherford Oscar® Winner	I hope that with this score, everybody realizes that Elliot Goldenthal cannot write original music. Every score is exactly the same, with only the instrumentation changed. Talk about Variations On A Theme! That sax stuff is frighteningly awful. Elliot, hang it up. You're time has come. Shaun NP---Rio Conchos! Way to go FSM!
posted 01-13-2000 10:29 AM PT (US)

SEBULBA Oscar® Winner	Everything definately sounds the same. You could totally trade music with Interview with a vampire and Alien 3, and they'd both work the same. Although, I hate to admit it, I do like both of those scores. [This message has been edited by SEBULBA (edited 13 January 2000).]
posted 01-13-2000 10:39 AM PT (US)

Gae Oscar® Winner	I did'nt have any of his scores until I bought "Demolition Man" recently and apart from the fact that there's only a miniscule 30 minutes of it I thought it sounded interesting, also very discordant. The mixture of orchestra and rap textures on "Subterranean Slugfest" sounded "different". Overall I was impressed with my first Goldenthal soundtrack, but after reading this post maybe I won't bother buying any more if they all sound the same. Gae NP Mask of Zorro"
posted 01-13-2000 01:49 PM PT (US)

Andre Lux unregistered	Goldenthal is one of the best composers working these days on movies. His scores for "Alien 3", "Interview with the Vampire", "The Butcher Boy" and "Michael Collins" are pure gems, not to mention his "classical" works ("Fire, Water, Paper - A Vietnam Oratorio" and "Othelo") which are realy outstanding. Of course, all of them sound unberable to the average listener. Looking foward to this new release with great expectation.
posted 01-13-2000 02:09 PM PT (US)

Lancelot Oscar® Winner	I'm trying to decide if that's a misguided insult....?
posted 01-13-2000 02:46 PM PT (US)

James Oscar® Winner	I enjoy Goldenthal's music the least of almost any composer I can think of. At the same time, I think he is one of the most ingenious, inventive, and original composers working in films this or any other day. (Batmans aside). Alien 3 is probably my favorite. It may sound like dissonant noise, but listen carefully. There's a depth and essence there that most scores of that type just don't possess. I still run my tear ducts dry every time I listen to "Adaigo" from Alien 3. James
posted 01-13-2000 02:57 PM PT (US)

Al Oscar® Winner	Elliot Goldenthal is an odd taste that takes a while to get used to. I think of it as contemporary art. I used to think he was horrible. I hated most of IN DREAMS the first time I listened to it, but now I enjoy it immensely. His complex orchestrations can be very atonal, but they usually are structured very well. He CAN write very tonal, beautiful and original melodies. Listen to the song DREAM BABY that he composed for In Dreams- a heavenly piece. How about TRAIN STATION FAREWELL from Michael Collins? A very original and moving piece. I think his full-blown action/suspense music is overwhelming. True. Often it can be monstrous and overblown, but it is done so with such power and imagination that all I can do is sit back and say "Whoa." NP - Fierce Creatures
posted 01-13-2000 04:59 PM PT (US)

Jeron Oscar® Winner	I'm not a big fan of Goldenthal myself (can't help but give the guy attention - he has "Gold" in his name...). I will say this - I think his score for Batman Forever is a pretty good one. I do think his action music can be a bit overbearing at times, but it works well in the film. Also, the cue "Mr. E's Dance Card," is a lot of fun to listen. Anyways... Back to what I was originally going to say: Sphere comes on every now and then - and for some reason the music just grabs my attention like two attracting magnets. I don't think "Ewww, Goldenthal" when I hear it. I think "Wow, that's good music." I haven't purchased the cd, yet... but it's definitely worth considering. I'll agree w/ you, his style takes quite awhile to warm up to. But hey, that's ok. I don't think his music is trash - it's just more than I'm used to. I admire the guy for getting out there and at least trying. There are hundreds of composers out there that haven't gotten jobs... but Goldenthal has. Doesn't that say something? Jeron [This message has been edited by Jeron (edited 13 January 2000).]
posted 01-13-2000 05:55 PM PT (US)

Audacity Oscar® Winner	Lancelot, I'm with you, I think that sounds like an insult. Audacity
posted 01-14-2000 05:30 AM PT (US)

Andre Lux unregistered	But it is not. Just a fact. Believe me. I didn't like Goldenthal at first. But now I love, like most of other guys who posted at this thread. Don't take things so personaly. Sorry if I offended any of you, Goldenthal haters. [This message has been edited by Andre Lux (edited 14 January 2000).]
posted 01-14-2000 05:40 AM PT (US)

Scott Oscar® Winner	Mr. Motormouth here has to give his two cents. I have three scores of Goldenthal. I like them all. He is a complicated composer yet he goes in line with all other contemporary composers. They tend to compose more complex, atonal pieces (remember, Goldenthal started in the classical arena first). He is not one of my favorite composers, but I wouldn't say he sucks. Then again, what the heck do I know... Scott
posted 01-14-2000 09:15 AM PT (US)

Jeron Oscar® Winner	I dunno Scott, you hate the score for Generations... I'm beginning to wonder myself. =) haha Jeron
posted 01-14-2000 10:00 AM PT (US)

pietari Oscar® Winner	Goldenthal is definitely a very good composer and as everybody has mentioned can be complex and and a difficult to listen. But as has been pointed out , his scores tend to grow on the listeners. It´s too bad that some of his best scores (Demolition Man and Sphere) are so badly presented on cd (Varese) Definitely need a complete bootleg of them
posted 01-14-2000 11:48 AM PT (US)

Shaun Rutherford Oscar® Winner	I thought that Alien 3 was a great score, but I began to dislike Goldenthal as a composer after hearing bits of Interview With The Vampire, Demolition Man (I'm not going in order here, folks), Batman Forever, Sphere, and now Titus. I'm not saying the entire scores are from Alien 3, but all of the set-piece cues are. The Sphere music is decent, but ever since someone mentioned that the theme sounded like Edward Scissorhands, that's all I hear. With each new score, it's like he lays down the foundation of Alien 3 and adds layers around it. While it may sound interesting, all I can here is Alien 3's foundation. Just my thoughts, guys, Shaun
posted 01-14-2000 12:02 PM PT (US)

Al Oscar® Winner	If you want a good example of Goldenthal's loud and complex orchestration being put to good use, watch the "Unknown Event" scene from Sphere. It's noise, but, wow, it's flawlessly scored. I do wish he would lay off of the wailing sax though. He got that idea across. Howard Shore did it many years ago with Naked Lunch, and it didn't sound good there either.
posted 01-14-2000 12:09 PM PT (US)

Lancelot Oscar® Winner	I'm not a "Goldenthal Hater"...(I'm not an anybody-hater, 'cept for maybe a "Music inspired by..." hater...) Goldenthal is one of the most respected composers in his field--more power to him. As far as myself--not an "average" listener by any means--Goldenthal is good, but often not something that I listen to repeatedly. "Titus" is on my list of scores to purchase, though. I'm sure it'll be a interesting score.
posted 01-14-2000 01:55 PM PT (US)

Scott Oscar® Winner	Jeron, good one. You know I'll have to get you back now; you know that don't you? Scott
posted 01-14-2000 02:55 PM PT (US)

Steve Hughes Oscar® Winner	I know I started all this Goldenthal-bashing but, actually, I love most of his scores. Alien3, Demolition Man, A Time To Kill, Cobb and so on... I loved 'em all. I wasn't keen on The Butcher Boy though. I like the discordant quality and his original slant on scoring pictures, I just thought that Titus was overblown and ridiculous. [This message has been edited by Steve Hughes (edited 14 January 2000).]
posted 01-14-2000 04:05 PM PT (US)

Jeron Oscar® Winner	The sound clips I've heard of Titus do sound interesting... This really isn't a cd to pick up? Jeron
posted 01-14-2000 04:22 PM PT (US)

Crono/Kyp Oscar® Winner	I can't stand the guy. Because he killed "Sphere" and the Batman movies (someone like Goldmsith, Zimmer, Elfman would have been better) I have hated his music. --Crono/Kyp Writer/Director/Producer
posted 01-15-2000 01:37 AM PT (US)

SFT Oscar® Winner	I´ve been reading through some of the comments made about Goldenthal´s Alien 3. For Gods sake, why don´t you people realize how much that score SUCKS! He completely ruined the intire "sound" of the genre...and he made the film suck even more than it did to begin with! Other than that (and the Batman scores!), he is very talented. SFT
posted 01-15-2000 03:08 AM PT (US)

Dr.Evil Oscar® Winner	Finally people realize how boring Goldenthal is. Trying to make a genious for himself, composing (yes, you guys said it well) the sames passages. I like his Alien 3, but after this one, only (some) orchestrations has changed. Viva the noisemaker, Goldenthal! P.S. Sorry, Andre, I love to be an average listener!!!
posted 01-15-2000 07:16 AM PT (US)

Andre Lux unregistered	I'm glad to met people who can enjoy Goldenthal's complex and beautiful work, like myself. Kudos to you guys!
posted 01-16-2000 03:13 PM PT (US)

Cole Oscar® Winner	Well, I read all of this controversy and I went out the score immediately. and I must say - I cant stop listening to it. I love Goldenthal. He is a genious. his music is so incredibly smart (especially from a compositional standpoint). Yes it is hard to listen to for a lot of people (I have gotten to the point where it doesn't even phase me anymore). What is so great about the score is how lightly he seems to be treating it; all that silly stuff is so great because you just know he is making some incredibly sarcastic point with the stuff that's going on on screen. Didn't you guys that didn't like the score read the liner notes? It is all about contradiction! After I listened to the first track and then read the notes - I was hooked : ) [This message has been edited by Cole (edited 17 January 2000).]
posted 01-17-2000 02:05 PM PT (US)

spango Oscar® Winner	I´m a little bit confused...well Goldenthal is certainly not one of my favorites but to say Zimmer would have done better is not true (imagine Zimmer scoring BATMAN- dear God!!!). BATMAN was destroyed by the underachiever Schumacher, I was surprised when I heard the score. The music was too good for this crap. He´ll never reach Elfman but let him alive, he has talent enough to create stunning main titles (SPHERE, ALIEN3, BATMAN) and the BUTCHER BOY is IMO his masterpiece.
posted 01-17-2000 02:14 PM PT (US)

Thor Oscar® Winner	I'm going to join in with with Cole above and take the opposite extreme WITHOUT modifications. In my eyes, Goldenthal is one of the few really innovative composers of the current generation, and a semi-genius at that. He's number 5 on my all-time list, and deserves that spot immensely. Heavily influenced by his mentor Corigliano (and also Copland), he has developed a unique style that definitely is a "required taste", if there is such a thing. More like contemporary music than film music (as is reflected in his track titles), which might not be for everyone, or at least not for the average "theme hummer". Every score he has done has been small masterpieces, always heightening the picture and also standing perfectly on its own. I'm looking forward to Titus with awe! [This message has been edited by Thor (edited 18 January 2000).]
posted 01-18-2000 08:20 AM PT (US)

Audacity Oscar® Winner	So what it sounds like you all are saying is Goldenthal is like Philip Glass, you either love him or you hate him. Well I like most of what Goldenthal does but just like every composer on the face of the Earth, he has done stuff that I don't care for too much. Audacity
posted 01-18-2000 08:33 AM PT (US)

J. Peter Wolk-Laniewski Oscar® Winner	When did this happen? Goldenthal has been a fairly passive but continuous subject since I started posting here, but now all of a sudden everyone thinks he's the Antichrist! What's up with that? Anyway, I love Goldenthal's work and am thrilled to hear that he's doing another movie. This is the first I've heard of Titus, can someone tell me more about it? By the way, to all you Alien3 haters, it wasn't his fault, the producers and writers were the ones who dragged that movie down. But I don't really want to get into this debate again.
posted 01-18-2000 02:02 PM PT (US)

Cole Oscar® Winner	Thank you thor. You put it quite nicely (which is more than EG can say for his music) It is nice to hear some music that makes you want to commit yourself everynow and again. I highly recomend that everyone give EG another chance - but I understand if you just cant take it. Thor, have you ever noticed hoe a lot of Bernstein seems to have influenced Goldenthal? I heard Bernsteins' scherzo for brass and it sounded like it could be a Goldenthal peice. but yes the corigliano influences are cool. I am glad to know there are other Goldenthal lovers out there. I hope to be talking to you some more Thor. Goldenthal lovers unite!!!
posted 01-19-2000 05:08 PM PT (US)

James Oscar® Winner	Copland and Corigliano? Talk about mixed influences... James p.s. I say this positively.
posted 01-19-2000 06:25 PM PT (US)

Richard Oscar® Winner	HEAT was a fantastic score for a fantastic movie. For the look of the last two Batman movies, I think Goldenthal did a teriffic job. I'm not too fussed on A Time to Kill though.
posted 01-19-2000 06:30 PM PT (US)

Cole Oscar® Winner	James, Copland and Corigliano are not such mixed influences as you might think. Much of what the general public knows of Copland is his harmonious "Americana" stuff. little do they know that Copland did some crazy stuff and was heavy into serialism.
posted 01-20-2000 12:32 AM PT (US)

Thor Oscar® Winner	Yes, Cole, that's right - Copland was an extremely diverse composer. And when you say some of Bernstein's music sounds Goldenthalish (or the other way around), that's interesting, because as we all know Bernstein (you're talking ELMER, right?) was also heavily influenced by Copland - especially, of course, the "americana" sound. On the other hand, Bernstein is also capable of an extreme subtlety I so far haven't discovered in Copland's works (or at least not to the same extent). Sorry for raving off-topic here!!
posted 01-20-2000 08:20 AM PT (US)

James Oscar® Winner	Hmm... interesting... I guess I need to expand my Copland collection...
posted 01-20-2000 11:26 AM PT (US)

Andre Lux unregistered	Goldenthal got my attention with his superb score for "Alien 3", which is almost as good as Goldsmith's. Next was "Interview with the Vampire", a very impressive work specially when you consider he had so little time to work on it. Then came "Batman Forever", the best score of all Batman movies, puting Elfman previous clichés to the ground. Just to mention 3 bad movies (almost) saved by his music. I really like Gondenthal's works. I hope he get more movies to score.
posted 01-20-2000 12:59 PM PT (US)

Cole Oscar® Winner	Actually Thor, I was speaking about Leonard Bernstein (my apologies for not being clear) but since you mention that about Elmer, I am now going to have to look for this; this will be fun. But yes I meant Leonard. Like I said, His Scherzo for brass and percussion had me fooled into thinking it was Goldenthal, also parts from his Mass (have any of you ever heard that? unbeleivable!) And since I was thinking about Goldenthal's influences I went and listened to a Stravinsky piece ( I think it was a piano concerto) that had some of Goldenthal's trademark piano tone rows and a-rythmic percussion/brass ostinatos in it. Very interesting indeed.
posted 01-20-2000 04:48 PM PT (US)

SFT Oscar® Winner	Andre, You ACTUALLY think that Goldenthals Batman was better than Elfmans? What planet do you live on dude? That score was PATHETIC. And Alien 3?? Don´t get me started. You seem to like scores that are original just for the sake of being original. Frankly it makes me sick. At least Elfman creates scores that fits the films...Goldenthal is a very talented composer, but saying that his Batman scores were better than Elfman´s, is clear proof that you need help. What a bunch of crap. And please forgive me if I am not "polite"...I´ve had enough of your insane ramblings. SORRY! SFT
posted 01-21-2000 12:45 AM PT (US)

Andre Lux unregistered	Yes, Goldenthal's "Batman Forever" is much better than Elfman's (or should I say Williams's?). Just my opinion SFT. Don't get mad. I perfectly understand why you love Elfman so much. Believe me. I was 16 once. And if you are sick I advice you to look for a doctor. Thanks.
posted 01-21-2000 05:00 AM PT (US)

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