Another lengthy release from Horner (66mins) and I have to say straight off that it is nothing new. I have a feeling this score is going to whip up another of those Horner ripping himself off debates. I spotted about half a dozen Motifs and themes from his other scores. It's not as good as Titanic or Mask of Zorro either.

Anyway, pick it up and judge for yourself...

I heard a suite from it on Soundtrack Cinema, and I was extremely unimpressed.

I almost got to the point where I had this picture of James Horner thinking "Gee, let's see how much of Braveheart and Deep Impact I can stick in this movie without anyone noticing?"

In fact, if anyone who reads this happens to own the Braveheart CD and can listen to soundtrack Cinema (www.film.com, you'll need to go by the end of Christmas Week) at around 12 minutes into the song, a famliliar tune begins to play...

If you play that segment from Bicentennial Man 12 minutes into the Real Player recording and go to track #11 (For the Love of a Princess) of the Braveheart CD about 2:23 into the cue, you'll notice they are in fact the same thing almost note for note!!! I was shocked to say the least.

PS. I yearn for the days of Glory...

NP: Braveheart by James Horner (why?...) *****/*****

Ok, I can always listen to his music, as to me, his stuff always sounds nice, but this self ripping-off is just getting beyond a joke.

*update* Further into the listening of the sountrack cinema presentation. Yikes, you're SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO right about the Braveheart thing, but also, listen nearly right before that for a theme lifted note for note from Deep Impact...

I am very upset this fool is scoring The Grinch...

Dan (UK)

I wonder if it's the fact that he only cares about his larger films, considering that Titanic, Apollo 13, Legends of the Fall, and even Zorrow were quite large projects and pretty recently released (okay, so 4 years ago ain't that recent), but his smaller projects have just been rehash. God, I hope this is the case...

The day he rips off Glory will be the day Armageddon comes...yes...that seems about right.

I recevied the CD a couple of weeks ago, and have listened to it a lot. Yes, Bicentennial Man isn't one of Horner's more original score - there are a lot of lifts from other scores. Like the piano motif from Deep Impact and the short phrase from Braveheart. But all in all, Bicentennial Man is a wonderful, emotional score, with some really nice themes, and some fresh ideas, as well. Horner really makes use of the love theme (used for the Dion song) using it in many different ways.

I just think that you should listen to the entire score before you start to bash the music. A few clips won't do.

Also, remember that Horner wrote this score in a hurry, after replacing Williams.

Then came the second track, and it got worse...

and worse.....

and worse........

This is seriously the worse of Horners rips. He uses nearly EVERY one of his popular motifs in here somewhere, whereas he usually uses one or two. The "Braveheart" rip in The Wedding track is nearly a minute long and uses the EXACT same orchestrations...it is just depressing to hear...Horner is just sinking lower and lower. He rose a little with "Mask of Zorro", but sank again with "Mighty Joe Young" and now this pathetic attempt at an "original motion picture score". Hah.

The thing that pisses me off so much is that this guy has written some of my favorite scores of all time. "Krull", "Willow", "Land Before Time", "Braveheart", "Legends of the Fall". All some of my favorites, and there are plenty more that I like very much. What I'm afraid is going to happen is this: By the time Horner decides to start getting original again, no one will hire him to score a movie and he will fade out. But, if he has it in his mind to continue this recent disgusting trend, its better if he fades out now and stops composing all together. At least he could save some of his dignity.

I used to defend him a great deal against people such as myself now for ripping off his own material because frankly, before now, I barely even noticed most of the time. Yes, Titanic in some places sounded like Braveheart, and Deep Impact in some places sounded like Titanic. However, in his more recent scores, James Horner seems to be losing his grip on originality, borrowing whole segments and motifs from other scores. Instead of one small section, he'll take two or three, and expect the audience not to even notice. That is unacceptable.

However, like any great James Horner fan, I have great faith in the man, for he is a great composer who still has many years left in him to make marvelous music. I just hope that he has enough faith in himself to create more of the music that I grew up with and loved...only original, I hope.

You want to talk about composers ripping themselves off, look at Jerry Goldsmith! (I'm going to get it for this one, I just know it) You can look me in the face and say that Horner copies himself. Granted this is true but you have to look at other composers too, NOT JUST HORNER! So what if the score sounds like some of his old stuff. You try being a composer and making up NEW stuff everytime you score a movie and see how you do!

I agree that composers have their "off" scores that copy their other works, but you have to look at it in such a way that composing music is hard work! It's like writting a 10+ page paper, you try to get new information so you don't repeat what you have said on page 2, but it's a hard thing to do!

This group should have a better understanding of the "score science" because that's what you listen to. All of you here bashing Horner should know better. It's the average perosn that makes fin of composers and film scores, it should not be us.

I for one love Horner's music and if he copies himself a few times so what. I think it's interesting how he can "re write" the theme from "Deep Impact" or "Braveheart" and see what it can do.

There I'm done...For now GURR...

--Crono/Kyp
Writer/Director/Producers

NP: Snow Falling on Cedars Suite MP3 ****/***** (Thanks Jeron )

I admire James Horner as a composer. Yes, he reuses alot of material from his previous works in Bicentennial Man, but hey... come on - like said earlier, he had to put this one together in a hurry. I wouldn't come down on him so harshly. James Horner has a certain sound. Yes, it may be repeated again and again in several of his scores, but hey - people wouldn't hire him unless they liked what they heard. He's not going to lose jobs for unoriginality. He'll gain jobs for the "Horner-esque" style he has developed and is now fine tuning. Different movies demand different styles. You don't know what this director requested - he may have absolutely ADORED the scores for Sneakers, Deep Impact and Braveheart. Those very scores may have been his inspiration for turning to Horner after Williams couldn't score it.

Before you go bashing a great composer, think about the circumstances. This certainly doesn't dismiss the fact that he's done this again and again... but heck, people like it. I like it. I like the music he creates - he has a good thing going... why disrupt it? I think experimentation is great, that trying new things and new approaches is healthy - and we hear that in Horner's first track on BM.

I dunno, I'm not trying to stir up any trouble. I'm not trying to start an argument or end an argument... I just think that unless you ARE Jerry Goldsmith or John Williams... or Basil Poledouris, Danny Elfman, Bruce Broughton, Joel McNeely, Elmer Bernstein, David Arnold or anyone else - respect the work the composers do and don't harass them for the job they have done.

Thanks,
Jeron

The Declaration of Independence was extremely disappointing and left me very unimpressed. Jefferson is a bastard. You'd think with his brilliance he'd have something better to do than just reuse stuff Montesque and Voltaire already said tons of times. I don't know what Adams was thinking when he handed the pen over to Tom...

The reason so many people are dissapointed is because while his recent scores are still good, they are never great as they were during his finest years.

Anyways, that is my FINAL thought on the matter, and before you start bashing ME let me once again reiterate that I never hated James Horner...In fact he is my favorite composer. Yes, his scores are good, but when was the last time he released a score as amazing sounding as Willow or Glory? Not in awhile...And when he did do it back in that age, he did it extremely well and frequently.

PS: Great analogy James! Haven't laughed this hard in a long time.

Aaron

NP: The Four Seasons(Vivaldi)

And thanks for the support.

--Crono/Kyp
Writer/Director/Producer

Truth is, I'm wondering how I would feel as a filmmaker having him score one of my movies and re-use themes from his previous scores...I'd be p*ssed off you know? He'd be taking some originality from my movie.

Also, I wonder how the hell the likes of Mel Gibson feel when Horner re-uses themes from their movies in other scores he does later down the line...

I was really surprised he went and re-used on of his most memorable and brilliant themes from Braveheart in this, it shocked me, really did, as I would never expect him to re-use such a theme that you could immediately class to that film.

To give him the excuse of "he wrote it in a hurry" is a bit poor because then many would argue all the other scores he's written in which he's re-used themes he wrote "in a hurry" too.

Dan (UK)

There is a difference in sounding the same and re-using material. If as a composer some of the music sounds the same and is similar, that is fine. If I take parts of my earlier score and re-use for anything other that a sequel, that is, in my opinion, lazy.

Goldsmith perhaps sounds the same these days, but he doesn't do the Horner thing.

I like Horner. He writes some of the most beautiful themes ever, and if he sounds the same, so what. Just don't re-use whole sections of other scores.

I do not compose myself, yet, but I draw a lot. If some of my styles and drawings look like a Scott drawing, good. But if I take parts of my drawings, copy them, and insert them into new drawings, that is not art to me.

Darn it,
here I talk too much again.

In short, I like James Horner's music, but he is reusing his material (and not in a subtle way like before) and it should stop.

I think this whole discussion should end before we start sending hate mail to each other and accusing people of things they didn't say.

Thanks for mentioning "The Spitfire Grill." I picked it up when I went to go get Bicentennial Man, Anna and the King, and Angela's Ashes.

What a great score! I figured if I am going to get BM, I might as well balance it out with what you guys called "a gem." And wow, it is. =) I see this cd on the shelf everytime I walk into the store and do my cd-flipping routine (you guys know what I'm talking about). I knew Horner scored it and that fact in itself always piqued my curiousity.

Anyways, thanks! I really scored big today - 4 beautiful cds.

Jeron

NP - Anna and the King (*****/*****)

The name of the Natl. Geographic special I composed the score for is titled Mother Ocean. It has played on PBS several times and appears on the Discovery Channel on occasions. When I find out a date, I will let everyone know.

Aaron