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Author	Topic: Other Kinds of Music?

Audacity Oscar® Winner	I have noticed that people who like Film Music seem to have a deeper appreciation for all kinds of music. It is almost as if we understand music better than your everyday person. I am not sure where that comes from, as for myself I played Tenor Sax in a Jazz Band so I know how to read/write music, and I understand the actual mechanics as well as the feeling of music. My girlfriend, who I introduced Film Music to, was on various dance teams so she understands the beat of the music. She likes the Film scores that have a definite, fast beat to them because that is what she is used to dancing to. Playing in a lot of Jazz and Symphonic bands I listened to many different kinds of music. I listened to Jazz/Swing Music like Glen Miller, Benny Goodman and Branford Marsalis so that I could be better in Jazz band. And I listened to Orchestral music like Mozart, Bach and Handel so that I would have a better understanding of Symphonic music. But on the other hand I like certain types of Pop music like Chicago, The Eagles, Pink Floyd and even newer Alternative Music like Moby, Tricky and Orb. I still like to listen to some Country Artists and I even liked some older Rap before it turned into nothing but Vulgar disgusting junk. I think that film Music combines not only the mechanics and rythm of all of these different kinds of music but also the feeling and inspiration that music of any kind can awaken in any person. What other kinds of Music do you all listen too? And do you agree with me that we Film Music Fans have a better understanding of music in general? Thanks for Reading, Audacity N.P. Les Miserables, Basil Poledouris
posted 04-17-1999 07:49 AM PT (US)

SFT Oscar® Winner	I don´t know if we have a greater understanding for music, I can´t really find any music other than filmmusic I like, although I can understand why other people like things like hiphop, jazz and rock. Maybe that´s what you mean? Well, the only thing I can´t understand why people listen to is rap. And I´m not talking the sort of hiphop-rap, but things like 2Pac ect. I mean, what is the point of having somebody hit a drumb while somebody else just talks? It does´nt exactly show any talent. SFT
posted 04-17-1999 07:58 AM PT (US)

Dawk Oscar® Winner	Yeah, I agree... it all has to do with something I posted under another topic that if you listen to something that's not necessarily the "cool" thing, like Film Music, you're being honest with yourself and others that.. well, you like what you hear. And that honesty will go for any type of music that you might've liked if ignorance wasn't blocking your view like it does for most people.. in a way, Film music opens the mind. I only liked a few artists when I was growing up, and then when I realized I loved film scores, I started realizing that I liked all sorts of other music.. and I have a very good time being able to listen to and enjoy tons of music wheras some poeple might wonder why I listened to it.
posted 04-17-1999 09:05 AM PT (US)

Gae Oscar® Winner	Audacity, I mainly listen to film/classical music and I also appreciate jazz and musicals. I used to be really into "Punk" and "Heavy Rock" in my teens but that was just a passing phase. If I want some really heavy music now I can get it from my scores or say a Shostakovich,Tchaichovsky,Sibelius or Walton symphony to name but a few.As well as playing piano/keyboard I teach this also and compose my own music through my Cakewalk programme on my computer/keyboard. I very rarely listen to the latest chart hits as you hear that music everywhere you go anyway...and it usually only takes a few hearings to get to now the songs.Besides it does'nt appeal to me much anyway! Gae
posted 04-17-1999 01:07 PM PT (US)

S Smith unregistered	I think that having some degree of musical training can help in possibly understanding music at a deeper level, but I think people just like what they think sounds good.
posted 04-17-1999 09:42 PM PT (US)

Audacity Oscar® Winner	Thanks to everyone for their posts, this topic is something I have been curious about for a long time. Gae, You said you compose your own music, is there anyway for me to hear some of it? Audacity
posted 04-19-1999 06:23 AM PT (US)

Sean Bires Oscar® Winner	I've grown a huge appreciation for the band, the "Nine Inch Nails". While most adults dismiss their music as satan-worshipping "noise", which it really isn't (they aren't satan-worshippers... they aren't even religious), I usually find tons and tons of angry emotion to their songs and very deep meanings to their lyrics. I also have a small library of MP3 singles... ranging from the light-rock-hip-hop of Everlast, to the bizzare Fatboy Slim, to the heavy Gravity Kills, and to the lighter music of Hole. MP3's are very convenient when you just want a single and not have to buy an entire CD for one song.
posted 05-29-1999 11:53 PM PT (US)

Dawk Oscar® Winner	I don't know if most adults really believe it to be "noise", they just want to have this stereotypical attitude for teens. I just recently got my car stereo installed, and I got a lot of remarks like "So instead of just noise coming out of the engine..." And everyone knows that the big percentage of my collection is film music, and I don't listen to anything just because it's loud. They would refer to thier own music as noise if it was me listening to it.. but as far as that goes.. ya just kinda gotta say "f**k em'" "if they don't like it, they don't have to listen to it, but they sure as hell are not going to stop me"
posted 05-30-1999 09:26 AM PT (US)

Al Oscar® Winner	Audacity, I also played Tenor Sax in a Jazz Band. I used to play Clarinet also, but now I just experiment on a piano or keyboard. I'll tell you this though.. listening to more and more film music has caused me to appreciate certain scores and composers that I used to dislike, but it sure hasn't changed my hatred of country music. I also don't enjoy listening to opera or classical music at all. I don't know why. I can try to listen to it, but deep down I know I am not enjoying it at all.
posted 05-30-1999 10:30 AM PT (US)

Mary Oscar® Winner	I too have a musical background. I used to take piano lessons. However, my sister, who is a much better pianist than I will ever be, does not particularly gravitate towards movie music. So it's like everything else--a matter of personal taste. Your own history and personality dictates what's beautiful to you. Every song or melody is telling a story or communicating a feeling. Although I don't like Rap, it IS beautiful to someone who believes and understands the words behind it. So while movie music is beautiful to me, and to all of you, someone else can't fathom what we see in it. Perhaps they feel they have a better understanding of music, because they listen to classical, or country or whatever. I really find that interesting. Mary n.p. Little Women P.S. You are a lucky person, Audacity, to see beauty in so many different genres of music. Not everyone can do that.
posted 05-30-1999 03:02 PM PT (US)

Gae Oscar® Winner	Al, you said you dont like classical music even though you are into film music....that surprises me as I think they are indistinguishable. What type of classical music are you referring to? I would suggest having a listen to some 20th Century composers such as Shostakovich(he also wrote about 40 film scores) or Prokofiev, William Walton, Arthur Bliss,Ravel,Debussy, Rachmaninoff etc, etc. Most of todays film composers have in some way been inspired by these composers and others. I love all orchestral music but like least of all the earlier baroque or 18th century music compared to say the 19th and 20th century. I also believe that film composers are the current "classical" composers...some of them even write symphonies and or violin/flute concertos e.g. Williams. Gae
posted 05-30-1999 04:41 PM PT (US)

James Oscar® Winner	Film music and classical music are the only two genres I can actually say I enjoy. Other than that, there are a few other artists I like, most of them residual of an earlier passing phase of ignorant popular opinion. Mainly, I still like R.E.M., Pink Floyd, and Metallica, and U2's earlier work I also enjoy. Now that I think about it, it all depends on the song or selection itself. I might like one song on a certain pop artist's CD, but despise the rest of their music. And because of my immense enjoyment of orchestral music, I keep wishing that there would be a wider appreciation of classical crossovers. As for certain people having a deeper understanding of music than others, I would like to think that it requires musical training, but I know quite a few people who have been playing music since they could walk who conform to all possible popular opinions and I know others with no musical training who have much broader opinions about music. I think the reason that film music fans seem to have a better understanding of music is that film music, more than any other genre I believe, has the largest diversity of styles while never straying away from the certain unmentionable idea of what a film score is. But that's a very vague opinion on my part. James NP - The Avengers (Joel McNeely) ***** [This message has been edited by James (edited 05-31-99).]
posted 05-30-1999 06:53 PM PT (US)

Jeron Oscar® Winner	I try to listen to other kinds of music for my friends' sake - not because I necessarily like it, but for the reason they put up with my stuff, so it's only fair for me to try their stuff. I'm like James - I can't really enjoy anything other than film music or classical music... with one exception. For some reason, I ABSOLUTELY make exceptions for songs and techno arrangements that are directly related to the film and it's themes... like the Bond films for instance... and the Arnold/Propeller Heads collaborative efforts. I DID find myself purchasing the new Ricky Martin and Tim McGraw cds this weekend (just for kicks)... I can always use some diversity for the sake of being well rounded, but I always end back at square one. Film Music. What's better? Jeron [This message has been edited by Jeron (edited 05-30-99).]
posted 05-30-1999 08:59 PM PT (US)

Michel Oscar® Winner	Ahh, very interesting responses.. Here's another one: I've been trying to get my dad to like movie scores. He played trumpet for 20 years, in high school and professionally. He doesn't play now, but when he did, he was excellent. I would think he would be able to appreciate classical music or film scores, but he doesn't. He thinks scores are too repetitive and boring even though he listens to instrumentalists such as French horn player Chuck Mangione and Jazz pianist/writer Dave Brubeck. He was riding the excersize bike last week, and I thought I'd try something. I put The Rock track 8 "The Chase" on the stereo. As awesome as I think that piece is, he didn't enjoy it one bit. About 30 minutes later, I had The Matrix various artists soundtrack on Rage Against the Machine. He tells me, "that's what you should have played while I was on the bike." Unbelievable... It's just impossible to figure out what music one person is going to like. Who would believe that back in 1991 when I was 14 years old and screaming and going crazy over the New Kids on the Block that I was also listening to Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, The Hunt for Red October, and The Man From Snowy River? Wowww..... Michel NP: Babylon 5: Volume 2 (the best music you're NOT listening to!)
posted 05-31-1999 12:15 AM PT (US)

J. Peter Wolk-Laniewski Oscar® Winner	I am a percussionist. Not a drummer, a percussionist. As a musician I'll pretty much listen to just about anything. What I like really depends on what kind of mood I'm in. Sometimes I want Aaron Copland, sometimes I have a hankering for Tool. Film music probably broadened my horizons, but not as much as Drum Corps has. For those of you who don't know (probably all of you), Drum Corps is like really competitive summer marching band without woodwinds. Despite the stereotype about marching bands, there are quite a few groups out there that are amazingly good. They take music of various kinds (including film scores) and arrange it into very cool twelve minute shows. I encourage everyone to find a competition near you this summer and check it out. Participating in this activity has really made me appreciate music in all it's forms. Except rap, country, and punk because I hate that stuff.
posted 05-31-1999 04:29 PM PT (US)

Ed Coleman Oscar® Winner	While waiting for "Titanic" to start, they ran a preview for the movie "Ever After". In the preview they played a song I hadn't heard before. I later found out it was called "The Mummer's Dance" by Lorenna Mckinnett. Her music is a blend of Celtic/Middle Eastern. It is just beautiful, and now I only listen to scores and Lorenna. I do not play any instruments or write music, but everyone on this list would do themselves a great favor by giving her a listen, I bet she will hook more than one of you. I have all her music and if anyone would like to be directed to her best, just let me know. Ed.
posted 06-01-1999 06:00 AM PT (US)

bump17 Oscar® Nominee	I'm new to exposure to movie/film music. There are a few soundtracks from movies although that I have really enjoyed. So I can't say in particular that has affected my deep appreciation for music. Sometimes, I feel love for music is innate, something that is just part of you, the way you're made. If a person has a real love for music, I think they would be able to appreciate the wonderful qualities in all types of music. I happen to love Jazz, Pop, R&B, the rap from back in the days. Rap has changed so much as far as focusing on negativite things nowadays, it's unfortunate. I can enjoy country, caribbean and african music and I must admit since I took a music class I have found that opera has grown on me. Heavy metal and some rock is a little out of my league mainly because of some of the subject matters sung about. But you got to admit some bands have guitar players that are exceptional. Bump
posted 06-01-1999 01:50 PM PT (US)

Al Oscar® Winner	Gae, I can't explain why I don't enjoy classical music. I don't even know why myself. They should be the same, but to me there is something different about the sound. I don't know. I do agree on film composers being today's "classical" music composers. I wouldn't say that I can not stand classical at all. I just don't care for it very much. Sometimes when a film score reminds me too much of classical music, which is very rare, it just doesn't sound that great. Perhaps there is classical music out there that I may like, but right now I just don't favor the "sound' of it. I do think that people with any musical talent, whether it be playing an instrument to being able to whistle, can experience music beyond just the senses and hear the tone and harmony. Whenever I listen to filmmusic, I can often see the notes and how they'd be played on the piano. I try to avoid doing this, because I feel that to listen to it just the way it is satisfies me most.
posted 06-01-1999 07:57 PM PT (US)

Sean Bires Oscar® Winner	I don't like classical music either... Even though moviemusic and classical music both use an orchestra, the composers of movie scores use the orchestra to paint the emotions and atmosphere of the film. Whether it's Starship Troopers or Dark City, the composer captures the excitement and setting of the film. Classical, however, I find to be a bit... "blah"... probably because I'm a teenager... but still, it's very boring to me. I can tolerate some classical, like Ride of the Valkyries, or Mars from The Planets... but those classical songs are written in a soundtrack style; they paint an exciting and exotic landscape. Classical isn't that bad, when you compare it to the "Spice Girls"... a band that we all agree sucks total ass. (sorry I had to highlight that, but you know they suck total ass ) [This message has been edited by Sean Bires (edited 06-01-99).]
posted 06-01-1999 08:14 PM PT (US)

S Smith unregistered	Hey, J. Peter (and everybody else), Have you ever heard of Evelyn Glennie? She's a deaf percussionist. I saw her perform once with the L.A. Phil. Phenomenal. I feel I can bring this up since this post is about other types of music. I've got a CD of music by James MacMillan featuring Evelyn Glennie. I suppose it'd be classified as 20th century classical music.
posted 06-01-1999 10:28 PM PT (US)

S Smith unregistered	Sean, The implication I get from your post is that classical composers DON'T "paint" emotion or atmosphere. True, it's not to a film, but A LOT of classical music is very thematic/programmatic and quite emotional, especially if you know the story. Take for instance Shostakovich' Symphony #7 "Leningrad." This was written by Shostakovich literally while Germany was attacking Russia. During the work you can actually hear the tanks rolling into Leningrad. It's a very moving and incredible (albeit long) piece of music. I'll agree to a point though, some classical music just seems sort of mundane (I personally am not a big fan of the Impressionistic period), but a lot of is very beautiful and can be very emotional.
posted 06-01-1999 10:38 PM PT (US)

Aaron R. Brown Oscar® Winner	I never liked any kind of music until I was 10. That was when I heard a man on TV whistle a suite from Handel's Water Music. After that I was hooked on classical music. Now I enjoy Baroque music and some other late composers. I really like Aaron Copland, who was also a Oscar winning film composer. I also like a little R&B. But now-a-day with a lot of new artist starting to cross over to Hip-Hop, I think very much of it is pretty annoying. (e.g.- Usher, Monica, Aaliyah, and Brandy.) John Williams said that he thought that modern film music was an extention opera and musical comedy of the earlier centuries that has part of our modern entertainment- The Motion Picture. I urge all film music fans to listen to early symphonic orchestral music. It will help you understand film music.
posted 06-02-1999 05:18 AM PT (US)

Norman McCay Oscar® Winner	It's sort of sadd for much of mainstream to dismiss film music and contemporary jazz (while everyone applauds big band jazz/blues), seeing how we are constantly exposed to these types of music. Whenever we see a movie (most movies these days anyways), there's the great orchestral score to back the movie up. The music that is known as "elevator music" (which I have never heard of in an elevator to this date) also doesn't get any recognition at all. People laugh at it when great musicians such as Dave Koz, Jonathan Butler, and yes, even the infamous Yanni's names are popped up. Heck, they are usually the butt of many jokes (such as Yanni and Chuck Mangione). That just isn't fair to these great musicians and the ever-expanding genre of contemporary jazz. Critics just don't give enough credit to where it's due. Personally, I can't understand why rap songs are popular either. First, many of the most popular rap songs use a melodic tune that if the rapping was taken away, it would've sounded just like any other orchestral score or contemporary jazz piece (Bone Thugs-N-Harmony comes to mind). Second, my estimation is that an overwhelming majority of all current rap songs are either "ripped off" from old R&B classics and other pop songs and yet nobody appreciates those songs and instead many think these rappers are some talented genuises when in fact they are not. Sure, they might have made the remakes to be better than the originals, but how often does that often? That was just my bit about rap. Same also goes to some of the hard rock musicians, which I will ramble on later.... Fav: The Phantom Menace (An absolutely awesome album) Un-Fav: Air Force One (Sorry!)
posted 06-02-1999 06:30 AM PT (US)

Al Oscar® Winner	I thought a neat experiment in film music was the use of Rap and Orchestral score in Bulworth. Oh, I know. Ennio Morricone's great score was pretty much butchered, but at some points it had a great effect. There is an interesting car chase scene where a Rap song plays but during the middle of it, Morricone's comedic theme is mixed in with it. They actually fit together. During the finale, when the movie does actually reach an emotional point. The beautiful main theme does show up, and it takes over from there. Since the viewer has not seen or heard any emotional moments up to that point, it makes the scene pretty moving. There is one rap song on there that I didn't think was that bad, but the rest of it just clutters up into the movie and gets annoying. Just in case you are interested, Morricone's full score is available. The disc has 2 suites. The first containing 17 minutes of the good stuff. The second containing 4 minutes of the neat comedy theme and 17 minutes of annoying suspense music.
posted 06-02-1999 08:48 AM PT (US)

Dan Brecher Oscar® Winner	If it's a good tune/song I will like it, that's my thought on the matter. I'm not one who akes to an artist because they're popular, they have to be good in my mind. Tell you who I am a bit partial too lately, Enigma, like that stuff a lot especially after hearing one of thier tunes in The Matrix trailer. Hehe, I got the album (in fact, I got a special 3 disc presentation of all thier albums, german import) and loved everything I heard. I was also extremely happy when the music from the Eraser trailer came up, haha, always wondered who it was by. Dan (UK)
posted 06-02-1999 09:26 AM PT (US)

Norman McCay Oscar® Winner	I have to absolutely agree with Dan. Enigma's The Eyes of Truth grabbed me and never let go....I actually downloaded the whole album in MP3 format off the web, but I loved it so much that I went out and bought the album (The Cross of Changes, thanks to many of you out informing me of the source of the trailer music). Speaking of MP3s....isn't this what music is all about? If you love the music SO MUCH, then you would be willing to part with the money and buy the album!! I condone people who download MP3s, but I can't really stand those who download albums of MP3s when they should go out and buy them!! That's not respecting the artist at all in my opinion. I understand the cases where the music is not for sale. I know MP3s are illegal in the general sense, but truthfully, BECAUSE I downloaded the MP3s of the album, I felt confident (so I won't get ripped off) in purchasing the REAL album instead of ripping the album onto a CD-R. But too bad not many listeners actually do that, do they? Sorry to drift off topic....
posted 06-02-1999 03:02 PM PT (US)

Al Oscar® Winner	Downloading MP3s of whole albums? Oh, that's it Norman. I'm turning you into the authorites. Seriously, I haven't seen any place where you can download a whole album. I remember the Eraser trailer music a little bit. I actually thought it was pretty corny. Not just the music, but the trailer. However, after seeing these positive comments, I may have to check out this Enigma group. ..and I have no problem with Yanni as long as he stays in his own profession, but I dread the horrid day when he decides to compose film music. Things are bad enough with Eric Serra!
posted 06-02-1999 09:11 PM PT (US)

Michel Oscar® Winner	I also bought Enigma's second album, Eyes of the Truth, because of The Matrix trailer music. I think the cd is great. Would anyone recommend their first and third cds, or do they all sound the same? Michel NP: The Horse Whisperer--Thomas Newman (***)
posted 06-03-1999 01:39 AM PT (US)

Sean Bires Oscar® Winner	(responding to Al) There are a hundred million sites where you can download entire albums in MP3 format. I downloaded the Matrix album, the Ghost in the Shell soundtrack, and the Akira soundtrack all in MP3's. I hated the Matrix album, so I deleted it... I bought the orchestral soundtrack, though. I Bought the Akira soundtrack and the Ghost in the Shell soundtrack CD because I liked those ones so much. Why buy the CD's when you have them in MP3's, you ask? MP3 compression has an effect on the sound quality of the original CD recordings. They make the sound seem "hollow"... MP3 compression takes out the richness of the sound. Try taking a track from the GATTACA soundtrack and compressing it. Sounds very hollow compared to the CD recording, doesn't it? Besides, downloading an entire CD in MP3's just seems somewhat cheap if you use it for more than evaluation purposes (meaning if you keep it). I always buy the CD if I like the MP3's I download (I bought two Nine Inch Nails CD's since I loved their MP3's so much. They're great CD's, I don't regret buying them.)
posted 06-03-1999 03:09 PM PT (US)

J. Peter Wolk-Laniewski Oscar® Winner	S Smith: Evelyn Glennie is one of my favorite people. I saw her perform with the Oregon Symphony playing a piece by Macmillan and I have one of her CDs. The woman is amazing. I am a big fan of 20th century classical music, mainly because it is in the 20th century that composers started using percussion instruments to greater effect, making the music more exciting for listeners and percussionists like me.
posted 06-03-1999 05:41 PM PT (US)

S Smith unregistered	Yeah. I saw Evelyn Glennie perform "Veni, Veni Emmanuel" with the L.A. Philharmonic and was blown away. A truly talented and incredible musician.
posted 06-03-1999 07:56 PM PT (US)

Michel Oscar® Winner	Sean Bires: I've never really listened to Nine Inch Nails? What do they sound like? I recently bought the newest Massive Attack cd just because I liked their song that Neo was listening to through headphones in The Matrix. The only other song I'd ever heard by them was the one on the Mission: Impossible various artists soundtrack. I like the cd, but the songs start sounding the same. What do you think about NIN? Michel NP: The Horse Whisperer
posted 06-06-1999 12:31 AM PT (US)

Ben Penserga Oscar® Winner	I've had a musical background for about 10 years now, since I learned how to play trumpet an I still keep that musical itch alive by being in the marching band at University of Delaware. I think this is part of the reason I like scores so much, is that I can actually play many of the parts I hear on an album. Last year one of my shows featured Lost in Space. Now everytime I hear that score, I can say "yeah, I played that part right there." While I enjoy a wide range of music (you can find Tom Jones, Puffy Daddy, Frank Sintra, NIN and Al Green in my CD collection), I find that only my instrumentalist friends are the only ones that enjoy scores with me, I think for that very reason.
posted 06-06-1999 02:19 PM PT (US)

Sean Bires Oscar® Winner	(This post is off the subject of moviemusic, but I've heard people make similar posts about Enigma's albums and nobody minded) Michael: I don't know what your trying to tell me when you ask me about the Nine Inch Nails and mention CD's with no Nine Inch Nails music on it. I can partially answer your other question, though... "What do they sound like?" Their style of music was constantly changing... almost all their music is made with synthesizers, though. Here... I'm quoting a great review I read on www.Amazon.com about the CD. The review just takes the words out of my mouth, so here it is... <Snip!> NINfan19@excite.com from Columbus, Ohio , June 3, 1999 Simply incredible music. After reading a majority of the 111(soon to be 112) reviews I am here to educate those who don't understand Trents music. What Trent tries to convey through his music are his true emotions on life, love and even everyday occurences. It's like he takes his lyrics right out of his diary(which he actually does). It was so refreshing when I first bought this album about 2 years ago to find some music I could relate to. And for those of you who think that he fakes his anger you can't be serious, in order to think that way you've either a)never achieved any goals in life or when you did you realized hey, this doesn't make me happy, or b)your so closed off from the rest of the world that you don't realize how screwed up the world can be. Why do you think Kurt Cobain commited suicide? Success wasn't everything he hoped for. And the title track everyone has a hard time understanding this was Trents way of exploring suicide without actually commiting the act. It kinda, like he has said, "demystified" the experience.It is not encouraging anyone to commit suicide it is just saying "hey what if I did". The fact that us NIN fans can connect with Trents emotions is all that really matters. So what if his views on religion aren't what society wants. Although he did take me from being an agnostic to a very firm atheist, but that just shows everyone the effect he has with his audience. That he connects with them. So to all you parents out there concerned about your children listening to this music, first, at least they got good taste, secondly at least they aren't listening to music that is not true to what society is all about(Backstreet Boys). And if you think that your child is going to be a high school drop out loser just look at me for an example, I'm currently 19 and enrolled in college carrying a 3.6 in Computer Information Systems. People should view this album as a peice of art, which is exactly what it is. This was my first NIN album and currently I'm up to 9 CD's and I also got the Closure video. I agree though that this album isn't for everyone, especially hardcore christians and those closed off from society, although it was pointed out to me in one of the reviews that I read that they are one and the same. Well that's it boys and girls and by the way BUY THIS ALBUM!! [This message has been edited by Sean Bires (edited 06-06-99).]
posted 06-06-1999 05:49 PM PT (US)

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